[nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of a HTML element

Yes, but we don't actually know how the buffer actually works. So we can't 
just base our thesis on the fact of the HTML tags.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Parham Doustdar" <parham90@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 1:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of 
a HTML element


Jaws wasn't used as a basis of ideas, Jaws was used as an example simply
because more users on this list use Jaws. And as I saiid, it's easy to go to
the end of an element if we use closing tags in the HTML source of the page,
going up one level in the HTML hierarchy and going to the end of that
element if it's not the body, div, form, and etc kind of tag.
HTH,
Parham
---
Contact info:
Skype: parham-d
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email: parham90 at GMail dot com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trenton Matthews" <trenton.tmantv@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 11:27 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of
a HTML element


> Ok folks,
>
> Viewing firefox keybord shortcuts, there is no direct paragraph
> functionality within the browser.
> Now, as for internet explorer, unless something drasticly changes, the
> correct paragraph commands are "control+up" and "control+down"
> respectively.
>
> Now as for the beginning of an item, why not do the "window-eyes"
> approach:
>
> Left-bracket, then a letter to go to the top of the list.
> Right-bracket, to go to the end of a list.
>
> This goes along with forms  with F, quotes with Q, etc.
> And another thing, sure pressing "i" for a list item takes you through
> them, but how do you know you have reached the end of the list? You
> don't!
> And that's one of the great features of the Window-eyes screen reader.
> It doesn't go to the next list, because its truly at the end of the
> list. The only way you go to the next one, is if you manualy go to the
> next one.
> The one thing we don't want NVDA to be, is like a JFW cloan, and it
> seems to me tha discussion here, is heading this particular direction.
> Instead of focusing on a particular screen reader, try them all out,
> then see what you can do to make NVDA even better than them. That's
> what window-eyes is known for. That's what Dolphin's known for.
> Which screen reader was the first to have a "screen layout" for the
> web? It certainly wasn't Jaws for windows, that I know.
> So I say once more, improve on the ideas that other screen readers
> have, not just add the ones that were already there.
>
>
> On 6/6/09, Gene <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> I'd have to experiment to find out.  I did those sorts of experiments
>> quite
>> some time ago but it was too long for me to recall.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 9:39 AM
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>> of
>> a HTML element
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure how the virtual buffer works, but I'm pretty sure the blank
>>> line feature would be easily implimented. If you copy directly from the
>>> brouzer (I.E. firefox) without using the buffers), would it - firefox -
>>> have
>>> the blank lines between paragraphs? I'm not sure I know the answer. I
>>> think
>>> some sites do, while others don't.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:04 PM
>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>>> of
>>> a HTML element
>>>
>>>
>>> When I started this discussion, I wasn't considering NVDA.  I was
>>> commenting
>>> on WebbIE.  I thought I remembered that NVDA does use control down arrow
>>> and
>>> control up arrow to move by paragraph in browse mode.  I wasn't sure so
>>> I
>>> just tested it.  It does support these commands when using firefox.  I
>>> haven't tested with Internet Explorer but I would think it would.
>>>
>>> It appears that you are correct that control down arrow and control up
>>> arrow
>>> don't work in every situation.  I may have been misinformed by one or
>>> more
>>> of the top people in the adaptive technology field about the
>>> universality
>>> of
>>> the command.  While I know it often works, Notepad appears to be an
>>> example
>>> of where it doesn't when you are not using a screen-reader like JAWS.
>>> JAWS
>>> evidently has a script function that causes it to work.  But you
>>> evidently
>>> can't move by paragraph in Notepad when using NVDA, Narrator and
>>> Window-eyes.  I don't have much opinion about whether NVDA should
>>> support
>>> move by paragraph where it is not natively supported in general.  I do
>>> think
>>> that it should support it in Browse mode, as it currently does.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure to what extent I might have thought you were disagreeing
>>> with
>>> me earlier but it's nice to know we are in general agreement.
>>>
>>> One thing I have noted is that, while NVDA does recognize paragraphs, it
>>> does not place a blank line where a paragraph break occurs when using
>>> browse.  I would suggest implementing this feature because, though it
>>> doesn't matter to blind users, if you copy and paste information from an
>>> Internet page to be read by a sighted user, it is important that
>>> paragraphs
>>> be indicated.  One or two other screen-readers I've tried don't place
>>> blank
>>> lines in the web page text either so NVDA is not alone in this omission.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 7:34 AM
>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>>> of
>>> a HTML element
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not disagreeing with you here. I fully support the "move by
>>>> paragraph"
>>>> feature for NVDA and web brouzing. Still, it would seem that many of
>>>> Windows' conventions have many discrepancies. Since NVDA mostly uses
>>>> Windows' built-in GUI as its source of information, how can we be sure
>>>> that
>>>> it will work properly?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 5:02 AM
>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>> end
>>>> of
>>>> a HTML element
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my test, Notepad did not move.  Wordpad moved to the blank line and
>>>> down
>>>> arrowing once brought me to the first line of text in the next
>>>> paragraph.
>>>>
>>>> I'd have to play with Notepad more to see if results are consistent or
>>>> what
>>>> may account for the inconsistency.  The commands I have stated are the
>>>> documented Windows commands for moving by paragraph.  They are not
>>>> screen-reader commands, though screen-readers may alter or enhance how
>>>> they
>>>> work.  for example, JAWS moves you to the next paragraph and reads it.
>>>>
>>>> I may be wrong that every standard edit field in Windows or Windows
>>>> programs
>>>> responds to this command but it is the documented command for move by
>>>> paragraph where programs follow Windows conventions and, despite the
>>>> fact
>>>> that Notepad may not honor it, the command does work in Wordpad and
>>>> Microsoft Word.
>>>>
>>>> Gene
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
>>>> To: "NVDA" <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:42 PM
>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>> end
>>>> of
>>>> a HTML element
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know, you are not correct. I've written three paragraphs,
>>>>> separating them by a blank line. Then, I used the CTRL+up and
>>>>> CTRL+down
>>>>> keystrokes, without a screen reader in both notepad and wordpad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Results:
>>>>> Notepad: Did not do anything.
>>>>> Wordpad: Moved to the next line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have not tried this with MS word, but I asume it will have the same
>>>>> result
>>>>> as Wordpad.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please correct me in this matter.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Timothy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:43 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>>> end
>>>>> of
>>>>> a HTML element
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When you are using a word processor or in any standard edit field in
>>>>> Windows, even if you are not running a screen-reader, control down
>>>>> arrow
>>>>> moves the cursor to the start of the next paragraph and control up
>>>>> arrow
>>>>> moves it to the start of the previous one. If you are saying this is
>>>>> not
>>>>> a
>>>>> standard command in browsers, yes, that's correct because browsers
>>>>> don't
>>>>> have cursors and the reason these commands work is because of the use
>>>>> of
>>>>> a
>>>>> virtual cursor by the screen-reader.  but the commands used to work
>>>>> with
>>>>> the
>>>>> virtual cursor should follow the standard commands used for moving a
>>>>> real
>>>>> cursor.  No one even questions whether commands like control left
>>>>> arrow,
>>>>> control right arrow, or just plain left and right arrow should do what
>>>>> they
>>>>> do whenever a real cursor is present.  It should be just as much
>>>>> expected
>>>>> that control down and up arrow will do what it does when working with
>>>>> a
>>>>> real
>>>>> cursor in a word processor's edit field or in any standard edit field
>>>>> anywhere in Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 3:16 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>>> end
>>>>> of
>>>>> a HTML element
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> You do know that CTRL+up and CTRL+down is not a standard command,
>>>>>> right?
>>>>>> I't
>>>>>> a JAWS command and NVDA and other screanreaders just followed the
>>>>>> trend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:58 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>>>> end
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> a HTML element
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the commands control down and up arrow are standard Windows commands
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> moving to the next or previous paragraph respectively.  they should
>>>>>> apply
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Word processor edit fields and in any standard edit field in an
>>>>>> application
>>>>>> or in Windows.  I don't recall if control down and up arrow moves you
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> paragraph in Firefox when using NVDA.  Those commands should perform
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> function if they currently don't.  I understand that the ability to
>>>>>> move
>>>>>> through the text of an Internet page as though a cursor were present
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> function of the screen-reader.  but the screen-reader should emulate
>>>>>> movement on a web page as though one were moving through a word
>>>>>> processor
>>>>>> edit field as much as possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Webbie often completely disregards Windows conventions and
>>>>>> conventions
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> by popular browsers. this is unfortunate because it makes it more
>>>>>> annoying
>>>>>> to use for those who also use other browsers such as Internet
>>>>>> Explorer
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> firefox.  it also teaches its own nonstandard commands to those who
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> used other browsers and thus encourages them not to use the other
>>>>>> ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "ron nuttall" <rron_ron@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:14 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>>>> end
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> a HTML element
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>i use to be excited about the NVDA navagation keys in firefox, but it
>>>>>>>soon
>>>>>>>became apparrent they were dependent on the eliments being there in
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>first place.
>>>>>>> one of webbies grate strengths is the abbility to skip blocks of
>>>>>>> links
>>>>>>> with ctrl down arrow and up if your going back up the page - and
>>>>>>> ctrl
>>>>>>> plus
>>>>>>> k to krop a page of all its eliments, thus leaving you with just the
>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>> content if there was any.
>>>>>>> i've just been in to firefox to see if ctrl vertical arrows are
>>>>>>> employed,
>>>>>>> and they're not.
>>>>>>> how about useing them to skip blocks of links in a fewture release?
>>>>>>> also, ravi's disire to go to the top or bottom of a list is a good
>>>>>>> idea.
>>>>>>> how about caps lock l for the first item in a list and caps lock i
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> last item in the list, or which ever.
>>>>>>> they['re not doing anything in firefox, so why not?
>>>>>>> cheers -- Ron Nuttall
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 12:07 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>>>>> end
>>>>>>> of a HTML element
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I consider it far more important to institute a skip blocks of links
>>>>>>>>feature.  I am not saying the list feature should not also be
>>>>>>>>implemented,
>>>>>>>>I have no opinionabout that.  But I consider the skip blocks of
>>>>>>>>links
>>>>>>>>feature to be a higher priority.  This is an important feature and
>>>>>>>>it
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>important for pages that do not use headings properly.  It is also
>>>>>>>>important on occasions when articles are broken up with blocks of
>>>>>>>>links
>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>the article. When I raised the need for a skip blocks of links
>>>>>>>>feature
>>>>>>>>before, someone working on NVDA replied that this  is hard to
>>>>>>>>implement.
>>>>>>>>To which I say, I don't know if it is hard to implement but JAWS,
>>>>>>>>Window-eyes, WebbIE System Access and Home Page Reader all have this
>>>>>>>>feature.  I would expect that Hal has it but I've never used Hal.
>>>>>>>>this
>>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>an industry standard feature and should be added to NVDA.  I do not
>>>>>>>>consider NVDA to be fully supporting web page access without this
>>>>>>>>feature.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gene
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>>>> open
>>>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>>> Message Archive:
>>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> Message Archive:
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> Message Archive:
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>>
>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>> open
>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> Message Archive:
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>>
>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>> open
>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> Message Archive:
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>
>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>> open
>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>> Message Archive:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>>
>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>> open
>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>> Message Archive:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
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>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>> open
>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>> Message Archive:
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>>>
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
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>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>> open
>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>> Message Archive:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>> Message Archive:
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
> Message Archive:
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

To post messages to the list send email to
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
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To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
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To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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