[nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of a HTML element

I'm not sure how the virtual buffer works, but I'm pretty sure the blank 
line feature would be easily implimented. If you copy directly from the 
brouzer (I.E. firefox) without using the buffers), would it - firefox - have 
the blank lines between paragraphs? I'm not sure I know the answer. I think 
some sites do, while others don't.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 12:04 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of 
a HTML element


When I started this discussion, I wasn't considering NVDA.  I was commenting
on WebbIE.  I thought I remembered that NVDA does use control down arrow and
control up arrow to move by paragraph in browse mode.  I wasn't sure so I
just tested it.  It does support these commands when using firefox.  I
haven't tested with Internet Explorer but I would think it would.

It appears that you are correct that control down arrow and control up arrow
don't work in every situation.  I may have been misinformed by one or more
of the top people in the adaptive technology field about the universality of
the command.  While I know it often works, Notepad appears to be an example
of where it doesn't when you are not using a screen-reader like JAWS.  JAWS
evidently has a script function that causes it to work.  But you evidently
can't move by paragraph in Notepad when using NVDA, Narrator and
Window-eyes.  I don't have much opinion about whether NVDA should support
move by paragraph where it is not natively supported in general.  I do think
that it should support it in Browse mode, as it currently does.

I'm not sure to what extent I might have thought you were disagreeing with
me earlier but it's nice to know we are in general agreement.

One thing I have noted is that, while NVDA does recognize paragraphs, it
does not place a blank line where a paragraph break occurs when using
browse.  I would suggest implementing this feature because, though it
doesn't matter to blind users, if you copy and paste information from an
Internet page to be read by a sighted user, it is important that paragraphs
be indicated.  One or two other screen-readers I've tried don't place blank
lines in the web page text either so NVDA is not alone in this omission.

Gene
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 7:34 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end of
a HTML element


> I'm not disagreeing with you here. I fully support the "move by paragraph"
> feature for NVDA and web brouzing. Still, it would seem that many of
> Windows' conventions have many discrepancies. Since NVDA mostly uses
> Windows' built-in GUI as its source of information, how can we be sure
> that
> it will work properly?
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 5:02 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
> of
> a HTML element
>
>
> In my test, Notepad did not move.  Wordpad moved to the blank line and
> down
> arrowing once brought me to the first line of text in the next paragraph.
>
> I'd have to play with Notepad more to see if results are consistent or
> what
> may account for the inconsistency.  The commands I have stated are the
> documented Windows commands for moving by paragraph.  They are not
> screen-reader commands, though screen-readers may alter or enhance how
> they
> work.  for example, JAWS moves you to the next paragraph and reads it.
>
> I may be wrong that every standard edit field in Windows or Windows
> programs
> responds to this command but it is the documented command for move by
> paragraph where programs follow Windows conventions and, despite the fact
> that Notepad may not honor it, the command does work in Wordpad and
> Microsoft Word.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
> To: "NVDA" <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:42 PM
> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
> of
> a HTML element
>
>
>> As far as I know, you are not correct. I've written three paragraphs,
>> separating them by a blank line. Then, I used the CTRL+up and CTRL+down
>> keystrokes, without a screen reader in both notepad and wordpad.
>>
>> Results:
>> Notepad: Did not do anything.
>> Wordpad: Moved to the next line.
>>
>> I have not tried this with MS word, but I asume it will have the same
>> result
>> as Wordpad.
>>
>> Please correct me in this matter.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Timothy
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 10:43 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>> of
>> a HTML element
>>
>>
>> When you are using a word processor or in any standard edit field in
>> Windows, even if you are not running a screen-reader, control down arrow
>> moves the cursor to the start of the next paragraph and control up arrow
>> moves it to the start of the previous one. If you are saying this is not
>> a
>> standard command in browsers, yes, that's correct because browsers don't
>> have cursors and the reason these commands work is because of the use of
>> a
>> virtual cursor by the screen-reader.  but the commands used to work with
>> the
>> virtual cursor should follow the standard commands used for moving a real
>> cursor.  No one even questions whether commands like control left arrow,
>> control right arrow, or just plain left and right arrow should do what
>> they
>> do whenever a real cursor is present.  It should be just as much expected
>> that control down and up arrow will do what it does when working with a
>> real
>> cursor in a word processor's edit field or in any standard edit field
>> anywhere in Windows.
>>
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Timothy" <tmthywynn8@xxxxxxx>
>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 3:16 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>> of
>> a HTML element
>>
>>
>>> You do know that CTRL+up and CTRL+down is not a standard command, right?
>>> I't
>>> a JAWS command and NVDA and other screanreaders just followed the trend.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 11:58 AM
>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>>> of
>>> a HTML element
>>>
>>>
>>> the commands control down and up arrow are standard Windows commands for
>>> moving to the next or previous paragraph respectively.  they should
>>> apply
>>> in
>>> Word processor edit fields and in any standard edit field in an
>>> application
>>> or in Windows.  I don't recall if control down and up arrow moves you by
>>> paragraph in Firefox when using NVDA.  Those commands should perform
>>> this
>>> function if they currently don't.  I understand that the ability to move
>>> through the text of an Internet page as though a cursor were present is
>>> a
>>> function of the screen-reader.  but the screen-reader should emulate
>>> movement on a web page as though one were moving through a word
>>> processor
>>> edit field as much as possible.
>>>
>>> Webbie often completely disregards Windows conventions and conventions
>>> used
>>> by popular browsers. this is unfortunate because it makes it more
>>> annoying
>>> to use for those who also use other browsers such as Internet Explorer
>>> or
>>> firefox.  it also teaches its own nonstandard commands to those who have
>>> not
>>> used other browsers and thus encourages them not to use the other ones.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "ron nuttall" <rron_ron@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 8:14 AM
>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the end
>>> of
>>> a HTML element
>>>
>>>
>>>>i use to be excited about the NVDA navagation keys in firefox, but it
>>>>soon
>>>>became apparrent they were dependent on the eliments being there in the
>>>>first place.
>>>> one of webbies grate strengths is the abbility to skip blocks of links
>>>> with ctrl down arrow and up if your going back up the page - and ctrl
>>>> plus
>>>> k to krop a page of all its eliments, thus leaving you with just the
>>>> main
>>>> content if there was any.
>>>> i've just been in to firefox to see if ctrl vertical arrows are
>>>> employed,
>>>> and they're not.
>>>> how about useing them to skip blocks of links in a fewture release?
>>>> also, ravi's disire to go to the top or bottom of a list is a good
>>>> idea.
>>>> how about caps lock l for the first item in a list and caps lock i for
>>>> the
>>>> last item in the list, or which ever.
>>>> they['re not doing anything in firefox, so why not?
>>>> cheers -- Ron Nuttall
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 12:07 PM
>>>> Subject: [nvda] Re: feature to navigate between the beginning or the
>>>> end
>>>> of a HTML element
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I consider it far more important to institute a skip blocks of links
>>>>>feature.  I am not saying the list feature should not also be
>>>>>implemented,
>>>>>I have no opinionabout that.  But I consider the skip blocks of links
>>>>>feature to be a higher priority.  This is an important feature and it
>>>>>is
>>>>>important for pages that do not use headings properly.  It is also
>>>>>important on occasions when articles are broken up with blocks of links
>>>>>in
>>>>>the article. When I raised the need for a skip blocks of links feature
>>>>>before, someone working on NVDA replied that this  is hard to
>>>>>implement.
>>>>>To which I say, I don't know if it is hard to implement but JAWS,
>>>>>Window-eyes, WebbIE System Access and Home Page Reader all have this
>>>>>feature.  I would expect that Hal has it but I've never used Hal.  this
>>>>>is
>>>>>an industry standard feature and should be added to NVDA.  I do not
>>>>>consider NVDA to be fully supporting web page access without this
>>>>>feature.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gene
>>>>
>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>> open
>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>> Message Archive:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
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>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>> open
>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>> Message Archive:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>> open
>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>> Message Archive:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>> Message Archive:
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>> Message Archive:
>> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
> Message Archive:
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
> Report bugs or make feature requests at:
> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
> Message Archive:
> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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