[nvda] Re: System tray question.

I feel bad for the generations that know the mouse and the boards, they know 
the os but if something goes wrong, they need to have someone fix it, or all 
they know to do is put in a cd and push a few keys, the system will be 
reformatted and a reformat will always fix things.
However if you don't know the system and its internals you may as well just 
work and every few days reformat so it will continue working.
I am from the generation that used dos, and so I can understand linux, dos, 
windows, the keyboard.
I didn't use any manuals, Because I just looked at the program and what it told 
me to do.
If something failed in those early years I had the command line, and I still do 
have the command line.
If something mangles itself if I know what I am doing I can reformat which will 
fix it.
However I can also discover what is or did go wrong and find ways how to fix it.
I also don't like this world in the fact that if something breaks you now must 
replace it.
My generation it was thatyou tried to fix it.
I'l freely admit this may sound old man like but in my day things were quite 
adventurous.
Lately I find myself not having to worry about anything mostly.
Ok I need to keep things in shape but there is no real joy in it.
True I could not set things up with sighted assistance now its all complicated 
as howver There were days I wish to have the old dos system back maybe with 
extra files and features.
You can strip dos down to just the system files if something seriously goes 
wrong on the system you can replace the os, if something goes wrong with a 
program you replace it.
If something goes wrong with the boot files you can delete it and then replace 
it.
If something goes wrong in dos really requiring a format then you may have a 
virus or most likely the system is dead and needs replacement.
Sadly in windows everything is on a central config place called the registry.
Its good sure, but if a program crashes it sometimes decides to take system 
dlls and such its linked to and the registry keys to.
And then windows crashes.
You reformat and it fixes it until it happens again.
In xp and later its more modular although when something stupid happens its 
easier to reformat because I find the solutions so complicated as to be 
worthless.
And its hard to know what it is you have if at all.
If its a virus, or spyware then well you probably can get that, but the os and 
the systems are so complex you don't know where to go or start.
At 05:21 p.m. 14/02/2008, you wrote:
>As far as I am aware the Windows + B hotkey has been a part of Windows since 
>Windows 2000.  Is it true that an entire generation of blind individuals, 
>people that rely on keyboard navigation every day, are not even taught the 
>keyboard commands built into Windows itself?  Is it not best when teaching a 
>student a screen reader to teach them the keyboard commands that are built 
>into the operating system?  Frankly put if the blind community wants to get 
>anywhere at all, they should really start to learn instead of only being 
>shown.  I realize many things in the real world is a bit of a shock to the 
>blind but the real world is the real world.  I hear all of the time the blind 
>are never taught in schools, etc. etc., but understand that is the same for 
>the sighted too.  What schools do all try to show, is there is a real world 
>out there and school is not going to teach you everything about it.  They do 
>teach you things like the ambition to learn on your own.  I have heard many 
>blin
 d peo
ple blame their schools for not learning this or that, but when you ask them, 
did you try to learn it on their own they most times give you a, no answer.  
That to me seems to be the main problem, blind people are looking for the easy 
and comfortable instead of showing the ambition to learn.  Yes, learning does 
not always come easy.  Learning doesn't always come by sitting back and waiting 
for someone to do it for you.  Learning the right way does not mean waiting for 
someone to come along to show you an easier way.  Learning comes from trying, 
failing, then getting up and trying again, because without a bit of failure 
there is no satisfaction in knowing you have accomplished anything.  So what is 
so wrong with teaching a bunch of blind people the keyboard commands that are 
built into Windows itself before you teach them the convenience commands?
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Driesenga" <truthobjective@xxxxxxxxx>
>To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:42 PM
>Subject: [nvda] Re: System tray question.
>
>
>>Again, thank you.  You've even brought up something I was probably trying to 
>>say, that being that consideration of the target group needs to be taken. 
>>Most ppl don't really care about anything other than getting things done that 
>>need to be done and the simpler and more straightforward the method, the 
>>better results the user has.  NVDA is coming along quite nicely, and I for 
>>one am very excited about this project, even from the typical user's 
>>standpoint.
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>>To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 10:05 PM
>>Subject: [nvda] Re: System tray question.
>>
>>
>>>James
>>>
>>>I was addressing Marvin's comment in my response about not putting items 
>>>into a product just because they are in JAWS.  I know you didn't make such a 
>>>statement.
>>>
>>>I will say that one problem which is an example of ideology making product 
>>>development more difficult than necessary is your comment that you will not 
>>>implement a list until you have tried everything else and found no other 
>>>way.  My argument in this case is that that is a bad use of limited time and 
>>>resources. The time in fooling around with the system tray could likely be 
>>>better used in other development of the screen-reader.
>>>
>>>I'll also point out that if I, as a very experienced and knowledgeable 
>>>Windows user didn't know that the space bar performs a single left click in 
>>>this context, then almost no one will.  Also, tool bars are not consistent. 
>>>In some cases, the space bar doesn't work on a tool bar and enter must be 
>>>used.  In other cases, the space bar does work.  Look at how hard it is to 
>>>get a Windows user to know and then to understand the difference between 
>>>when to use the space bar on a button in a dialog and enter.  It's a major 
>>>effort to get lots of Windows users to understand what the default button 
>>>is, and why in some dialogs you get expected results when you press enter 
>>>and why in some you don't, depending on how the default button is handled in 
>>>a dialog.  The typical blind Windows user doesn't use a screen-reader to 
>>>learn Windows correctly.  He/she does certain things that the person has 
>>>been told to do with little understanding and simply does them because they 
>>>work.  they don't kn
 ow mu
ch about what is on the screen, often know nothing about using a simulated 
mouse, don't look through menus or dialogs to learn about short cuts or 
features in programs, and know little about whatever screen-reader they are 
using.  Which leads to the question of whom NVDA is being developed for?  If 
it's being developed for the typical user, worrying about whether a list is 
used for the System tray becomes meaningless.  If developed for a knowledgeable 
purist, it is meaningful but it makes no sense to develop a screen-reader 
primarily for the knowledgeable purist. the screen-reader should give 
information knowledgeable people use and want but those people already have 
screen-readers.  I would think the main audience for NVDA would be blind people 
who currently can't afford screen-readers and, by definition, that group isn't 
going to know much if anything for the most part and probably not be interested 
in learning much except how to do what they want to do.
>>>
>>>I am not advocating adding unnecessary features like unnecessary lists as a 
>>>general practice.  I agree that screen-readers should use Windows commands 
>>>where they work well and where there is no compelling reason to do 
>>>otherwise.  The system tray is an exception.  Using a list is so firmly 
>>>established that I believe it should be adopted in NVDA.  If it isn't, 
>>>thorough documentation should be provided in the System Access window 
>>>because almost no one is going to know how to use it in any other way, even 
>>>quite knowledgeable users.
>>>
>>>Gene
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "James Teh" <jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 8:29 PM
>>>Subject: [nvda] Re: System tray question.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Gene wrote:
>>>>>And not putting features into NVDA just because they are in JAWS is not in 
>>>>>and of itself a good reason not to do it. It's just rebellion and a 
>>>>>dislike of JAWS.  That's no basis for designing anything.
>>>>Granted. Please note that I never suggested this myself. Indeed, some might 
>>>>argue that NVDA has a JAWS bias in terms of keyboard shortcuts and the way 
>>>>it reads certain items because Mick and I were previously JAWS users.
>>>>
>>>>>If someone knows Windows, communicating with sighted people is not made 
>>>>>more difficult regardless of the screen-reader in use.
>>>>I agree most of the time, although there are some cases where this is not 
>>>>true. For example, if a screen reader user was trying to indicate the steps 
>>>>used to access a system tray icon, it would not make sense to anyone who 
>>>>did not use that screen reader. This is one reason that I prefer to always 
>>>>include the NVDA key or numpad for all NVDA specific commands; this way, a 
>>>>user is aware that this is an NVDA specific command. Other screen readers 
>>>>do this most of the time, but I've seen some annoying exceptions that 
>>>>weren't necessary.
>>>>
>>>>Regarding the system tray:
>>>>>Also, screen-readers provide options that are simply not available when 
>>>>>working from the keyboard even now.  You have the option to left single 
>>>>>click an item in the system tray.  This option is not present when working 
>>>>>with the System tray from the keyboard.
>>>>This is not true:
>>>>* Space = left single click
>>>>* Enter = left double click
>>>>* Applications key or shift+f10 = right single click
>>>>
>>>>>I seldom use the system tray except to work with the safely remove 
>>>>>hardware option.  When working with a list, I know that it is going to 
>>>>>either be the first or second item in the list, usually the first.
>>>>This is certainly not true on my machine, though I've seen systems where 
>>>>this is almost guaranteed.
>>>>>I don't have to fool around right or left arrowing through system tray 
>>>>>items and not knowing where a constant point of orientation is.
>>>>This is also true for the standard Windows+B access to the system tray. 
>>>>Assuming the mouse isn't interfering (which is the whole problem with that 
>>>>toolbar), pressing Windows+B always takes you to the first item. Try this 
>>>>with the latest trunk builds of NVDA.
>>>>
>>>>Despite all of this, I must emphasise that if we have to implement a list 
>>>>to make this accessible without messing things up for sighted users, we 
>>>>will. I mightn't like it for all of the reasons described above, but if 
>>>>there is no alternative, I'm not going to push for a solution which doesn't 
>>>>work. I'm just suggesting that until we've exhausted all possibilities to 
>>>>make the current solution work, I won't implement the list.
>>>>
>>>>Jamie
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>>>James Teh
>>>>Email: jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>WWW: http://www.jantrid.net/
>>>>MSN Messenger: jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Jabber: jteh@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>Yahoo: jcs_teh
>>>>To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>>http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
>>>>source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>>Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>>http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>>Message Archive:
>>>>http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>>
>>>To post messages to the list send email to
>>>nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>>http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
>>>source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>>http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>>Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>>http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>>Message Archive:
>>>http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>>
>>To post messages to the list send email to
>>nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>>http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
>>source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>>http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>>Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>>http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>>Message Archive:
>>http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
>
>To post messages to the list send email to
>nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
>http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
>source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>http://www.nvda-project.org/
>To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
>http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
>Report bugs or make feature requests at:
>http://trac.nvda-project.org/
>Message Archive:
>http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda


To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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