[nvda] Re: Support NVDA or you will lose it.

very good points, and to that I should add, for years I have been saying we as blind people should have the same access to a computer just like sighted people, and at least with NVDA we now have access to computers with out having to pay out big money, or to have a hot copy of a screen reader.

Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun. But I have never
been able to make out the numbers.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Kennydog" <hurrikenny@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 4:23 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Support NVDA or you will lose it.


It would not worry me if they put a small cost for nvda say 10 aussie bucks each release. If there is 40 thousand or 50 thougsand paying say 10 bucks each release that would pay for both programmers plus their overheads etc. and most probably be able to add another one or 2 programmers. It would also be far cheaper than some alternatives as well. Even at 5 bucks would cover it.. I how ever would still like to see it free and open source so many more people can use nvda than just the few of other screen readers, who either get it funded by bussiness, goverment etc but that is not the case for every one unless you have a job or you find another way either through funding to pay for it or go the illegal way.


If you can donate fine if you can't donate fine as well..
Also to get a professinal fund rasier would cost money as well, unless they get a procentage of what they raise.. How many of you guys have tried to sell or promoat a product to someone to get donations out of them say as in a coperate... It would most probably be a hard seller for you may fit in to some catorgories say for education but not for salaries etc or over heads. These guys are developers not fund raisers so might not be clued up enough or know where to look for fundings for the project.

The best we can do is promoat the project and or get the word out there as well. To me as well I would like to see blind foundations suppport nvda to keep it free for every one but that day may never come. Then the argument would come if you support nvda why don't you do other screen readers as well.. Then again if microsoft had a real screen reader in it with the stuff you needed in it like real screen readers would there be a thread now.

Gene nz

On 31/03/2012 6:36 a.m., Buddy Brannan wrote:
Hi,

I haven't been following this thread at all, think there's a misunderstanding here.

Is NVDA free? Of course it is. Can, and should, NVDA, ask for donations? Of course it can, and of course it should. If we benefit, we should give back, if we are able to. There's absolutely no arm twisting going on here, if you can't contribute, no worries, use and enjoy.

But that isn't where I'm going. NVDA is licensed under the Gnu General Public License (GPL). The GPL does not stipulate that software has to be no cost. In fact, Richard Stallman, back in the day, put GNU Emacs up for download, but if you wanted a tape of it (because you didn't want to spend several days on a slow modem connection downloading it), he would charge you $250. Did that mean GNU Emacs was not free software? Of course not. You could still download it for free. But even if you couldn't, that isn't the sense of the word "free" that the GPL embodies. As the FSF says, it's "free as in freedom, not free as in beer". It just happens that NVDA, and a lot of other free software, as well as being free as in liberty, speech, what have you, is also free as in beer, but it doesn't have to be in order to remain "free" software.

There is lots of software that is free as in beer, i.e. no cost, but not free at all. Ever tried to peek at the innards of, say, the Adobe Flash player? You can't. Even if you could, Adobe would sue your arse off if you tried to modify it and give away your modifications.

So, while we're talking about how free NVDA is or is not, let's please clarify what we're talking about here?

And, by the way, even if NV Access were unable to continue, NVDA wouldn't go away. The source code is still available, and NVDA is still free software. That isn't to say that a central development body that tracks and consolidates updates isn't a good thing, it absolutely is. But if that body ever went away, you and I still have the freedom to change, improve, modify, and upgrade NVDA. Because it's free software.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Mar 30, 2012, at 1:14 PM, "Gene"<gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>  wrote:

Yes, I am asking for a dramatic change in how NVDA is funded.  I wasn't
attempting to compare large organizations with NVDA.  I was discussing
What I consider a matter of principle, whether a screen-reader that claims
to be free should be funded largely by asking users to contribute. I
understand your point about disruption but disruptive or not, I think that
the fund-raising model should be followed. With your experience in
fund-raising, perhaps you could think of ways to minimize the disruption.

Let's consider the Public Television comparison.  Public Television does
not represent itself as free to those who use it.  It is paid for, in
considerable part buy users with pledge drives that take up ten or more
weeks a year and with unending incessant requests for donations the rest
of the time.

Regarding a comment made yesterday that we should not misuse our
disability, I don't know what that comment is referring to.  I said
nothing about misusing blindness to raise money.  I do not advocate
appealing to donors with pity.  I advocate appealing to donors to help
blind people have good access to an essential means of communication, work
and entertainment.  I'm not advocating misusing blindness.  I'm saying
that a free screen-reader should be just that, free to those who use it.
Over and over, blind people complain about having to pay more for access
to Windows and Windows programs than sighted users.  They want a free
screen-reader and they want Microsoft to provide one.  they don't want a
free screen-reader that they have to contribute to voluntarily. They want someone else to pay for it. And that's what I'm contending NVDA should be
if it claims to be free.  If it stops claiming to be free, that's a
different matter. But the intent is that it should be free to users. It
is not free if blind people who use it are made to feel guilty and like
freeloaders if they don't contribute.  that is a means of psychological
coercion. If you contribute from guilt or obligation, NVDA is not free for
you.

And what about the developers of NVDA. I understand that they are willing
to work for a ridiculously low wage but I don't think they should be
satisfied with that.  Proper fund-raising would, one would hope, allow
them to earn a salary they deserve.  Appreciation and acalades doesn't
help you live at a reasonable level. I am not content that the developers should sacrifice their earnings potential to do this valuable work. It's their choice but a proper fund-raising system might allow them to receive
fair remuneration.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Bartlett"<themusicalbrewer@xxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:09 AM
I personally have no objection to the requests for donations, viewing it
rather like public television.  The moment I can use NVDA in a
professional
setting to control my calendar and spell-check documents for public
distribution using MS Office, I won't need JFW anymore and I'll spend my
money with NVDA.  I can't support two screen readers at this time, and
while
NVDA does almost everything I need, the subset that JFW covers is more
necessary to me as a small business owner. I hope that ceases to be true
at
some point as I'd far rather my money went to support an open-source
project
than a commmercial enterprise.

As to Gene's other points, yes, one could do all that, and in the process incur more overhead, meaning you'd need more money. Having worked for a blindness non-profit, and administered a grant for same, you'd be amazed
at
the bite capital campaigns and fund-raising takes out of the operating
budget. You're comparing apples and oranges in comparing NVDA to large,
established non-profit organizations.  Now maybe those in charge should
consider moving NVDA's organization toward that model, but it's not a
simple
choice and would distract them from doing the coding and fixing we're all
anxious to see continue.

Now, if they want to hire me to do fund raising and grant development, and can pay me a competitive wage, I'll drop everything else I'm doing and put
full time into doing that.  I'd enjoy it and be good at it, but I can't
donate that kind of time, nor is it likely anyone else would either. So consider what you're asking for, which is no less than a major change in
how
the funding model is organized.  It may be necessary, blind folk are
notoriously tight with money and sadly too many feel entitled to take what they can and not give back. It may be that in the long run, the current model is unsupportable. If that's the conclusion, then James et al will
have to consider the way forward carefully.

Christopher Bartlett


-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf
Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:07 PM
To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda] Re: Support NVDA or you will lose it.

I want to make this as clear as possible to avoid misunderstanding. I am not saying that blind people should not contribute to NVDA. At this time,
it is a worty goal to help NVDA continue to be developed.  there is a
serious shortage of funding at present.  But I consider it unacceptable
for
the long term that NVDA be heavily dependent on contributions from users. If NVDA is free for blind people, then it should be truly free, not free
but
with unending appeals to guilt and for money from users. If that is going to be the future, it is not truly free to blind users. It's far past time
to do more than rely on grants and user contributions.
Perhaps professional fund-raisers should be hired. Perhaps the experience
and advice of organizations of and for the blind who do successful
fund-raising should be sought.  I don't see guide  dog schools relying
primarily on guide dog users for support. I don't see the Hadley school
relying primarily on blind users for support.

Organizations of and for blind people, while they do solicit contributions from blind people, generally have a much wider gbase of funding. It's far
past time that serious attention be given to how NVDA may be funded
without
heavy dependence on the user base. either NVDA is a truly free
screen-reader
or it's a screen-reader with lots of guilt attached and pressure to
contribute and that is not free.

Gene

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Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/



Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices from nextup.com:
http://bit.ly/eJN97w
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
NVDA homepage:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices from nextup.com:
http://bit.ly/eJN97w
To post messages to the list send email to
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NVDA homepage:
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NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid†01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/


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*You are just one click away from my evergrowing website http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~hurrikenny Also, a popular free screen reader (NVDA) is available from http://www.nvda-project.org *
Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices from nextup.com:
http://bit.ly/eJN97w
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
NVDA homepage:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/

Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices from 
nextup.com:
http://bit.ly/eJN97w
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
NVDA homepage:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/

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