[nvda] Re: Support NVDA or you will lose it.

Hi,

I haven't been following this thread at all,  think there's a misunderstanding 
here.

Is NVDA free? Of course it is. Can, and should, NVDA, ask for donations? Of 
course it can, and of course it should. If we benefit, we should give back, if 
we are able to. There's absolutely no arm twisting going on here, if you can't 
contribute, no worries, use and enjoy.

But that isn't where I'm going. NVDA is licensed under the Gnu General Public 
License (GPL). The GPL does not stipulate that software has to be no cost. In 
fact, Richard Stallman, back in the day, put GNU Emacs up for download, but if 
you wanted a tape of it (because you didn't want to spend several days on a 
slow modem connection downloading it), he would charge you $250. Did that mean 
GNU Emacs was not free software? Of course not. You could still download it for 
free. But even if you couldn't, that isn't the sense of the word "free" that 
the GPL embodies. As the FSF says, it's "free as in freedom, not free as in 
beer". It just happens that NVDA, and a lot of other free software, as well as 
being free as in liberty, speech, what have you, is also free as in beer, but 
it doesn't have to be in order to remain "free" software.

There is lots of software that is free as in beer, i.e. no cost, but not free 
at all. Ever tried to peek at the innards of, say, the Adobe Flash player? You 
can't. Even if you could, Adobe would sue your arse off if you tried to modify 
it and give away your modifications. 

So, while we're talking about how free NVDA is or is not, let's please clarify 
what we're talking about here? 

And, by the way, even if NV Access were unable to continue, NVDA wouldn't go 
away. The source code is still available, and NVDA is still free software. That 
isn't to say that a central development body that tracks and consolidates 
updates isn't a good thing, it absolutely is. But if that body ever went away, 
you and I still have the freedom to change, improve, modify, and upgrade NVDA. 
Because it's free software. 
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY



On Mar 30, 2012, at 1:14 PM, "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Yes, I am asking for a dramatic change in how NVDA is funded.  I wasn't
> attempting to compare large organizations with NVDA.  I was discussing
> What I consider a matter of principle, whether a screen-reader that claims
> to be free should be funded largely by asking users to contribute. I
> understand your point about disruption but disruptive or not, I think that
> the fund-raising model should be followed. With your experience in
> fund-raising, perhaps you could think of ways to minimize the disruption.
> 
> Let's consider the Public Television comparison.  Public Television does
> not represent itself as free to those who use it.  It is paid for, in
> considerable part buy users with pledge drives that take up ten or more
> weeks a year and with unending incessant requests for donations the rest
> of the time.
> 
> Regarding a comment made yesterday that we should not misuse our
> disability, I don't know what that comment is referring to.  I said
> nothing about misusing blindness to raise money.  I do not advocate
> appealing to donors with pity.  I advocate appealing to donors to help
> blind people have good access to an essential means of communication, work
> and entertainment.  I'm not advocating misusing blindness.  I'm saying
> that a free screen-reader should be just that, free to those who use it. 
> Over and over, blind people complain about having to pay more for access
> to Windows and Windows programs than sighted users.  They want a free
> screen-reader and they want Microsoft to provide one.  they don't want a
> free screen-reader that they have to contribute to voluntarily.  They want
> someone else to pay for it.  And that's what I'm contending NVDA should be
> if it claims to be free.  If it stops claiming to be free, that's a
> different matter.  But the intent is that it should be free to users.  It
> is not free if blind people who use it are made to feel guilty and like
> freeloaders if they don't contribute.  that is a means of psychological
> coercion. If you contribute from guilt or obligation, NVDA is not free for
> you.
> 
> And what about the developers of NVDA. I understand that they are willing
> to work for a ridiculously low wage but I don't think they should be
> satisfied with that.  Proper fund-raising would, one would hope, allow
> them to earn a salary they deserve.  Appreciation and acalades doesn't
> help you live at a reasonable level.  I am not content that the developers
> should sacrifice their earnings potential to do this valuable work.  It's
> their choice but a proper fund-raising system might allow them to receive
> fair remuneration.
> 
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Bartlett" <themusicalbrewer@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:09 AM
>> I personally have no objection to the requests for donations, viewing it
>> rather like public television.  The moment I can use NVDA in a
>> professional
>> setting to control my calendar and spell-check documents for public
>> distribution using MS Office, I won't need JFW anymore and I'll spend my
>> money with NVDA.  I can't support two screen readers at this time, and
>> while
>> NVDA does almost everything I need, the subset that JFW covers is more
>> necessary to me as a small business owner.  I hope that ceases to be true
>> at
>> some point as I'd far rather my money went to support an open-source
>> project
>> than a commmercial enterprise.
>> 
>> As to Gene's other points, yes, one could do all that, and in the process
>> incur more overhead, meaning you'd need more money.  Having worked for a
>> blindness non-profit, and administered a grant for same, you'd be amazed
>> at
>> the bite capital campaigns and fund-raising takes out of the operating
>> budget.  You're comparing apples and oranges in comparing NVDA to large,
>> established non-profit organizations.  Now maybe those in charge should
>> consider moving NVDA's organization toward that model, but it's not a
>> simple
>> choice and would distract them from doing the coding and fixing we're all
>> anxious to see continue.
>> 
>> Now, if they want to hire me to do fund raising and grant development, and
>> can pay me a competitive wage, I'll drop everything else I'm doing and put
>> full time into doing that.  I'd enjoy it and be good at it, but I can't
>> donate that kind of time, nor is it likely anyone else would either.  So
>> consider what you're asking for, which is no less than a major change in
>> how
>> the funding model is organized.  It may be necessary, blind folk are
>> notoriously tight with money and sadly too many feel entitled to take what
>> they can and not give back.  It may be that in the long run, the current
>> model is unsupportable.  If that's the conclusion, then James et al will
>> have to consider the way forward carefully.
>> 
>>      Christopher Bartlett
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Gene
>> Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2012 4:07 PM
>> To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: Support NVDA or you will lose it.
>> 
>> I want to make this as clear as possible to avoid misunderstanding.  I am
>> not saying that blind people should not contribute to NVDA.  At this time,
>> it is a worty goal to help NVDA continue to be developed.  there is a
>> serious shortage of funding at present.  But I consider it unacceptable
>> for
>> the long term that NVDA be heavily dependent on contributions from users.
>> If NVDA is free for blind people, then it should be truly free, not free
>> but
>> with unending appeals to guilt and for money from users.  If that is going
>> to be the future, it is not truly free to blind users.  It's far past time
>> to do more than rely on grants and user contributions.
>> Perhaps professional fund-raisers should be hired.  Perhaps the experience
>> and advice of organizations of and for the blind who do successful
>> fund-raising should be sought.  I don't see guide  dog schools relying
>> primarily on guide dog users for support.  I don't see the Hadley school
>> relying primarily on blind users for support.
>> 
>> Organizations of and for blind people, while they do solicit contributions
>> from blind people, generally have a much wider gbase of funding.  It's far
>> past time that serious attention be given to how NVDA may be funded
>> without
>> heavy dependence on the user base. either NVDA is a truly free
>> screen-reader
>> or it's a screen-reader with lots of guilt attached and pressure to
>> contribute and that is not free.
>> 
>> Gene
>> 
>> Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
>> Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate
>> at:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>> Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
>> http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
>> Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices
>> from nextup.com:
>> http://bit.ly/eJN97w
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>> NVDA homepage:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> NVDA on Facebook:
>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
> Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
> Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
> http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
> Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices 
> from nextup.com:
> http://bit.ly/eJN97w
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> NVDA homepage:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> NVDA on Facebook:
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/

Come talk with other NVDA users on irc.blufudge.net #NVDA
Your continued donations help keep NVDA development going strong. Donate at:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
Or by purchasing voices from Ivona TTS:
http://www.ivona.com/accessibility.php
Use the following link with the code STOR-4NS3-DSCT to save 10% on Voices from 
nextup.com:
http://bit.ly/eJN97w
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
NVDA homepage:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid?01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/

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