[nvda] Re: Spell checking with NVDA

All very true.
Burt

On 08/29/2010 08:31 AM, Gene wrote:
If JAWS trainers don't teach Windows basics and teach mainly JAWS to new
students, they are not properly trained and are not following effective
procedures.  And if a trainer considers himself to be a JAWS trainer, that
raises the very distinct possibility that the person is not trained
properly and does not teach effectively.  A properly trained access
trainer should consider him or herself to be a Windows and Windows
programs trainer first and a trainer in whatever screen-reader is being
used second.  If someone only teaches JAWS, then they can validly say that
they only teach using JAWS but anyone who considers himself or herself a
JAWS trainer is likely emphasizing the screen-reader out of all proportion
when initial teaching is being done.

If you listen to the first item in the relevant links I gave yesterday,
that is, the first Windows Fundamentals class, you will see the method
used.  Windows is taught, the examples are illustrated either in Windows
itself or in Windows programs, and screen-reader commands are given where
relevant and where they augment the users ability to work with Windows or
the program.  Teaching Windows basics is not a separate field.  It is what
every trainer and tutorial should do that teaches a blind person who is
new to Windows. and many blind dpeople who already know something would
benefit, perhaps significantly, by listening to at least part of a good
Windows basics tutorial.  Unless you are taught thoroughly and
systematically, you are likely not to know certain useful or very useful
information and techniques to use Windows and Windows programs well and
efficiently.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Greer"<jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:50 PM
Teaching Windows is of course a different field.  In fact that is why, if
Jaws trainers focus on it at all, they only focus on the very very basic
operations of Windows.  Should a basic operation of Windows tutorial be
included in the instructions for NVDA?  That issue could be up for debate,
but it could also be cause for copyright issues.  It is unfortunate that
more people blind or sighted are not taught the Windows basics before they
go to their local department store to buy a computer, and that more
courses
are not offered for the blind to learn from the ground up, but that has
been
the case for even the sighted community since as far back as Windows 3.1.
So again, rather than government and individuals needing to invest tons of
money in training, it falls on the experienced users to teach the not so
experienced.  Even a person experienced in training Jaws, such as myself,
has not only had to learn the differences with NVDA, but also how to teach
them to individuals, sometimes on an individual basis.  Professional
training centers are not always the answer, because when you take a look
around the net, even those that have had a Jaws trainer come out and show
them a few things with Jaws, still are not sure of the full capabilities
of
Jaws or even Windows.  Now granted, I have read the help documentation for
NVDA, and there are a lot of programmer's terms that your average user is
not going to be able to make heads or tails of, but much of it is a simple
matter of defining what an object is, or a parent object, or a child
object.
That is where the community members willing to teach, and the revisionists
come in, to either explain what the terms mean, or to revise certain
things
into less obscure terms, or at least terms that make sense to the person
or
persons they may be teaching.  Another story from my own experience is of
an
ex-girlfriend of mine.  She is a highschool teacher.  I was lucky enough
to
be able to sit in on the classes she taught, and to my amazement,
everything
in her class was taught using the computer.  Each student in fact, was
sitting at their own computer.  In my days of highschool, computers were
few
and far between and set aside specifically for computer classes such as
basic programming.  The kids that did not take computers as an elective
did
not use computers in school.  That is why, there is still that crowd of
people within my own generation that hasn't a clue about how to use a
computer.  With the kids these days, that is starting to change, even with
such basic useage as an iPhone, the older generations, even within my own,
they take a look at it, and are as lost as can be, but that 10 year old
kid
down the street can do everything on it with ease.  So sometimes you have
to
take a look at things as is it a lack of training, or is it just
intimidation, and fear of new technology due to unfamiliarity.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Gene"<gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:30 PM
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [nvda] Re: Spell checking with NVDA

I haven't looked at the help documentation much but, as with other
screen-readers, the documentation is of little use to those who have
little or no knowledge of Windows basics and of the screen-reader.  If
the
person I was corresponding with already had a reasonable knowledge of
Windows, the documentation would be useful but not for a beginner.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Greer"<jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 1:22 PM
Gene, I do hope you are also refering people to the help documentation
already included in the NVDA program?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Gene"<gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 8:30 AM
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [nvda] Re: Spell checking with NVDA

I am sending this response to the list because others may find it of
interest.  I also cannot contact Mina using my standard e-mail
address.
Those wanting to see an expert teacher at work would do well to listen
to
some of the material I provide a link to in this message.  It's these
kinds of high quality tutorials that are needed for NVDA users.

Gene

If you don't know Windows, you need training in Windows basics or you
need
good tutorials or detailed documentation with a screen-reader that
explains how to use Windows regardless of what screen-reader you are
using.  As I believe I said recently here, but maybe it was somewhere
else, you don't need much training on whatever screen-reader you are
using
when you are first starting out.  thunder is a bulky, poorly designed
completely inadequate screen-reader and cannot properly be used as an
example.  Sysytem Access is easy to use if you know Windows basics.
The
introductory materila is not adequate that is provided with it.  But
if
you know Windows basics and find out one way or another, a few
commands
used in system Access, it is as easy to use as other screen-readers.

Good Windows basics training for blind people mostly should involve
learning Windows at the outset with basic screen-reader commands like
read
to end, read current line, and a small number of others taught to the
user.  Later, more screen-reader commands would be added as the user
progresses.  I've used JAWS, Window-eyes, System Access to Go, and
NVDA.
I can't comment on your specific individual experiences.  You have
said
in
previous messages that you knew Windows when you could see.  If you
had
not known Windows, you would either have needed training or far more
documentation than is provided with NVDA. There is no such thing as a
program centered screen-reader.  It's the training that counts.  JAWS,
Window-eyes, and System Access to Go can be used just as easily if the
method of training I am discussing is used.  I shall prove my point by
sending a link for listening to some old training material for Windows
98.
this material was developed long before System Access and will
demonstrate how a good teacher trains new students. NVDA needs high
quality tutorials using this model of teaching.

http://www.acbradio.org/pweb/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=19

Search this page for the word fundamentals and repeat the search until
you
get to the last occurrence.  Move up to the link associated with the
descriptive text and follow it.
Use your player's move back and forward by clip commands to move
through
the segments.  If you use move forward repeatedly, you will get to the
Windows Fundamentals segment.

Many people can learn Windows on their own given good training
materials.
Without such materials, most blind people will not learn on their own
or
will learn poorly and in a very incomplete manner.  You have written
of
your frustrations before.  These would have been mostly or almost
entirely
eliminated if you had had good training material.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mina"<minnahwisdom@xxxxxxx>
To:<gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 8:22 PM
I don't know if it might be that when the new version of Python came
in,
the
compiled driver no longer worked. If so then it would be easy enough
to
force a recompile by deleting the pyc file and then it has to make a
new
one
at the next run.
Brian

bglists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Moore"<sean.moore@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 3:17 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: The Pico synth again


ever since a few version ago, I can't see the pico syth at all in my
list.


--------------------------------------------------
From:<trenton@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2010 9:28 PM
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [nvda] Re: The Pico synth again

For those looking for pico, and its a "she,"

http://ru.nvda-community.org/files/pico-0.1.exe

Sincerely,

Trenton, the T Man!
PS. Hmmm. I think "pica" is a better name for her though.



you broke it mate...but
hey, it was in bad shape when you got it...lol...sounds like bad
hardware actually, but ????
B.H.
On 08/26/2010 04:48 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
PS American and spanish work right its only uk english that wont!

Brian

This account only receives email from the list. Please direct any
personal email to
briang1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Replies to this address vanish into a hole....
Unless Brian Gaff is in the To line display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Gaff Lineone
downstairs"
<bgaff@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2010 9:53 AM
Subject: [nvda] The Pico synth again


OK can anyone tell me why my pico is now only saying words one
letter
at a time instead of reading them? I'm not aware of having
changed
anything.

Brian

bgaff@xxxxxxxxxxx
Brian Gaff's other account.


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Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
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NVDA on Facebook:
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The NVDA controler DLL is at:
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NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
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Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

--
*the above was probably written by-
Burt Henry
Contact Info: *email, GTalk&AIM-
(burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx)
*Follow Me on Twitter-
@BurtHenry
*and I'm on Facebook*

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
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To post messages to the list send email to
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To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access,
an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip


Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access,
an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Yours,
Sean Moore&
Southeastern Guide Dog, Franklin

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Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
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The NVDA controler DLL is at:
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NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
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To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
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source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip


Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip


Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip


Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate if you 
can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip


--
        *the above was probably written by-
Burt Henry
        Contact Info: *email, GTalk&AIM-
(burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx)
        *Follow Me on Twitter-
@BurtHenry
        *and I’m on Facebook*

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate if you 
can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1473937/NVDASD-v2.0.2.exe
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

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