[nvda] Re: Some random thoughts

I agree.
----- Original Message ----- From: "jim grimsby Jr." <jimgrims@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 4:57 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Some random thoughts



I would think untitled  note pad would be enough.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:nvda-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf 
Of Michael Curran
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 8:51 PM
To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [nvda] Re: Some random thoughts

Hi,

I'm a little confused about this thread. What was the original issue? I
gather it had something to do with pane being spoken too many times, or
in what was perceived to be the wrong places?

As Jamie has noted, Most of the panes you hear in NVDA (such as when a
new application window becomes active, or when you focus on what seems
to be an unknown control) is not really a pane. In fact originally in
the first ever revisions of NVDA, these situations would be announced as
client.

So if you  gave focus to Notepad, it would have said:
untitled - notepad client.

The word client is something quite specific to MSAA, and is the generic
term for the main object of a window.

It was shown that many people on the list back then didn't like the word
client, although that was being the most truthful to MSAA. I then mapped
client to window:
untitled - notepad window

As if a client is the main object of a window, and NVDA doesn't really
ever say window in any other situation, I thought it would be the best
way to go.

So in this case, it would say window on foreground changes, and it would
also say window for any window where its main object had no specific
type information (as in MSAA did not know if it was a button, dialog,
edit field etc).

I myself liked the way of doing things, as 1. it did not use the word
client (which was rather confusing to those who didn't know what the
term meant). 2. It was more true in general terms to what it was (the
main part of a 'window') and 3. it did not conflict with other things
such as objects that are really a pane, such as in help systems etc.

For some reason, as we changed NVDA to use the new roles and states code
(From around April last year) we decided to instead map client to pane,
instead of window. This was probably my decision, I can't remember.

So, the questions really are:
*When NVDA sees an object with a role of client (this is main
application windows, or any window with an incomplete MSAA
implementation), should NVDA say client, pane, Window... what should it be? 
*When an application window receives focus (or to be more true, when the
foreground changes), should NVDA speak the role at all? or just the name.
e.g.
untitled - notepad

Rather than
untitled - notepad window
or
untitled - notepad pane

Mick

John Greer wrote:

Could there not be some way of getting NVDA to recognize a parent window
by tracing back from the first object in the nav tree? Even that though
seems like NVDA would have to keep a register of all of the applications
that are open at any given time and what object is in focus. I think
maybe as I wrote in a previous post if NVDA could say when a main app
window comes in focus instead of pane, it may clear up the confusion.
But if I understand you correctly the trick is to be able to distinguish
between a main app window and other window objects.
----- Original Message ----- From: "James Teh" <jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 9:14 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Some random thoughts



Gene Asner wrote:

We need to distinguish between unknown controls and a pane
indication. In
general, an unknown control has no relation to whether you switch
panes. I
have no objection to NVDA saying something like unknown control when
it sees
one it doesn't recognize.

Actually, the problem here is partially an NVDA issue and partially a
Windows/MSAA issue. Whenever NVDA sees a window with an MSAA role of
"client", it gets remapped to pane. The problem is that MSAA doesn't
distinguish between application windows and other windows. The unknown
control in the ExpressTalk application is not in fact a "pane" at all;
it is a control with an unknown role. Mick and i were discussing some
ways to make this a little nicer, but it's difficult when we're
limited by the accessibility APIs we use.

Jamie

--
James Teh
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