[nvda] Re: Some random thoughts

Hi,  
I myself like the pain announcement.  I don't even notice it much, but its nice 
to hear that something has popped up in a new window.  If you have a problem 
with it just hit control and silance speech.> From: jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> To: 
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [nvda] Re: Some random thoughts> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 
2008 19:21:55 -0600> > This same sort of issue came up between me and a friend 
of mine concerning > Jaws and what it can and cant read. Or should and 
shouldn't for that > matter. The problem is simply that a screen reader can 
only convey a > limited amount of information to the user. Blind people seem to 
have this > notion that if their screen reader does not speak every action 
taking place > on the screen they are missing out on something. Sometimes this 
is true and > sometimes it isn't. My friend was asking why the Microsoft 
pinball game > Space Cadet couldn't be made accessible to screen readers. I 
told them > because the screen reader simply cannot track that much visual 
information > and convey it to the user in a reasonable amount of time for it 
to still be > relevant. Further example is, if a bumper turns red for 1 second 
and if you > hit the bumper within that second you get 1,000,000 points. In the 
case of > getting a screen reader to convey that information, in the second 
that it > takes the screen reader to recognize the event has taken place and 
speak it > the event has already passed. My point is that no screen reader is 
ever > going to be able to convey every bit of visual information that is going 
on > at all times in Windows, so what the screen reader programmers have to do 
is > convey the most relevant information to the user for the job they are 
trying > to perform. Just because a screen reader does not read this or that > 
information does not mean that no one will want to use it. Just because a > 
screen reader does not work in the way that you hope also does not mean that > 
people won't use it. I have in the past five years used Window Eyes, > 
Narrator, Jaws, System Access and NVDA. Each and every one of them convey > 
information in different ways. To the people that have consistantly said > "No 
one will be able to use NVDA, no one will want to use NVDA because it > doesn't 
do this or that keep in mind this. A screen reader will never be > able to 
interpret the screen as efficiently as the human eye. It can never > be the 
equivalent of a human eye. In order for any screen reader to tell > that a 
program is doing this or that, the program has to convey certain > information 
to the operating system and the screen reader then has to filter > through what 
is relevant and what is not and speak it. However if a program > simply does 
not convey meaningful information to the operating system or in > some cases 
none at all then, the screen readers cannot see them. The human > eye may be 
able to see that something is there but that does not always mean > that it is 
giving the information needed for a screen reader to see it. > That is why they 
call a screen reader an adaptive aid and not a human eye > replacement. I find 
it a bit unfair when the programmers of NVDA are > scolded for being a bit 
reluctant to add a new feature. it seems every time > there is someone out 
there that throws the "Well no one will want to use > NVDA if..." argument out 
there. Have you ever heard the saying you can > please someone some of the time 
but not everyone all of the time? That > means that NVDA is not going to act 
exactly how you hope it will all of the > time but it does not mean that it is 
not still useful to others. Ok off of > soap box now.> ----- Original Message 
----- > From: "James Teh" <jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> Sent: 
Monday, February 25, 2008 6:09 PM> Subject: [nvda] Re: Some random thoughts> > 
> > Hi all,> >> > I am often given the impression that users believe we're 
being idealistic > > just to be difficult. This is not our intent, as should be 
obvious given > > the cause. We are trying to avoid simply repeating everything 
that other > > screen readers have done, potentially making the same mistakes 
as well. > > We're also trying to maintain a certain amount of consistency, 
which is > > very much lacking in other products. We'd rather try to apply a 
general > > rule wherever possible, rather than applying a badly thought out 
rule > > which has to be overridden in 90% of cases for specific applications. 
This > > is poor design and is unfortunately becoming more common. Having said 
> > this, we are aware that a general rule is not always possible and that > > 
there are always exceptions, but these exceptions should be just that: > > 
exceptions, not rules.> >> > On another note, people suggest that they want 
configurable verbosity so > > that they can choose what should be spoken in 
these difficult, > > controvertial cases. Such configurability is not as simple 
as it seems on > > the surface and can lead to greater complexity, not just in 
code and > > efficiency, but in useability as well. Providing "beginner", > > 
"intermediate" and "advanced" verbosity is not enough, because, for > > 
example, some advanced users might still want to hear about icons, while > > 
some may not. Conversely, providing an option for every single one of > > these 
cases (e.g. whether or not to speak "pane", whether to speak "icon", > > etc.) 
makes for an excessive number of configuration options which, aside > > from 
being confusing for the user, eventually makes for a slow, bloated > > and 
inefficient code base.> >> > Regarding speaking of window roles: The problem 
when considering these > > issues is that sometimes, semantic information is 
lost by not speaking > > these roles. Consider the following:> > * If we 
eliminate the speaking of too many roles, we will have seemingly > > arbitrary 
chunks of text spoken which don't appear to make any sense. For > > example, if 
we silence the "panel" role in the Java Control Panel, which > > is used to 
indicate grouping of controls, you will hear something like > > this on the 
general tab:> > "About <pause> About... button"> > Some might wonder why 
"About" is spoken twice. If "About panel" is spoken > > for the first, it makes 
it obvious that the button is inside a panel also > > called "About". Those of 
us who are familiar with this know that a pause > > probably means a different 
control, but some might not.> > * It seems that most don't want "pane" to be 
spoken for a foreground > > window, yet they are happy to have "dialog" spoken 
when entering a dialog > > window. Why should these be any different? One might 
argue that the former > > is a normal case and so needn't be spoken, but it 
could also be argued > > that this is pointlessly inconsistent.> > * The "icon" 
role is particularly controvertial. "Icon" actually does > > convey information 
that might be useful in some cases, although it isn't > > actually useful in 
terms of the behaviour of the control. "Icon" indicates > > that the item that 
is displayed is a graphical representation, not a piece > > of text. This isn't 
much use to a blind person in most cases, but could be > > useful in terms of 
one's understanding of the operating system and for > > communication with 
sighted peers.> >> > My rant aside... :)> >> > Mick and I have agreed to 
silence "pane" for application windows. In > > addition, "grouping" and perhaps 
"panel" will be silenced. We need > > constructive, useful feedback on changes 
like these.'> >> > Jamie> >> > -- > > James Teh> > Email: jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx> > 
WWW: http://www.jantrid.net/> > MSN Messenger: jamie@xxxxxxxxxxx> > Jabber: 
jteh@xxxxxxxxxx> > Yahoo: jcs_teh> > To post messages to the list send email 
to> > nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:> > 
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda> > Thank you for your continued support of 
Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open > > source free screen reader for Microsoft 
Windows:> > http://www.nvda-project.org/> > To get the latest NVDA snapshot:> > 
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/> > Report bugs or make feature requests 
at:> > http://trac.nvda-project.org/> > Message Archive:> > 
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda> > > > To post messages to the list send 
email to> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:> 
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda> Thank you for your continued support of 
Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft 
Windows:> http://www.nvda-project.org/> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:> 
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/> Report bugs or make feature requests 
at:> http://trac.nvda-project.org/> Message Archive:> 
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
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