I have no objection to posting on lists composed primarily of sighted people as sighted people do. When I am on such a list, I place my message at the bottom or intersperse. But this list is composed primarily of blind people. I deleted David's post but I will address his remarks now. The fact is, that blind people are not identical to sighted people. At times, it is easier and makes more sense to do something differently as a blind person when dealing with other blind people. Blind people can lead full lives and function well. No one can contend that blind people function identically to sighted people. Note carefully that I did not say that blind people function better or worse, I said identically.
If I am going to respect sighted conventions on e-mail lists composed primarily of sighted people, then sighted people should respect the conventions used on lists composed primarily of blind people. Saying we are all people is meaningless in this context. Sighted people should respect us, as blind people just as they want us to respect them as sighted people. When in Rome...
Second point:I don't know if you are referring to any of my posts when you say you have been made to feel guilty about using a mouse. That was not my intent and I don't recall any messages from anyone that appeared to try to induce guilt. I can't tell you whether what you evidently want, a read to end feature using the mouse, makes sense to implement. If you want to propose that there be some sort of read to end command that reads from the position of the mouse pointer to the end of the text, then propose it. I don't know how many mouse users would want such a command but propose it if you want it considered. I do not oppose such a command. I opposed keeping the bug because I thought it might have adverse consequences for blind users when a virtual mouse was added and because I have no idea whether other sighted mouse users would want the bug retained. A read to end command would give much better results, allowing the mouse user to read from the mouse pointer to the end of a document, be it a web page or any other kind of document and it would not interfere in any way with a virtual mouse in the future. I never told you not to use a mouse nor did I imply that you shouldn't do so. I simply said that if a mouse is not meeting your needs, then you need to learn NVDA commands that will meet them. There is nothing guilt inducing about that statement. It's simply a logical statement. If you can get a read to end feature that will allow the mouse to better meet your needs, fine. but what about the meantime or what if such a feature is not implemented for some reason.
And in the current discussion, the fact is that if you can see well enough to skip to where new content begins in an e-mail message, then you are not using the computer as a blind person and you appear to be taking a position based on ideology, that blind people are people and they should do what sighted people do because we are all people. I don't know if that is what you are saying but it's what you appear to be saying. A deaf person is not identical to a hearing person. A blind person is not identical to a sighted person. If a convention springs up among blind people that is better for blind people dealing with other blind people and is different than a sighted convention, then there is no reason that blind people should not follow the convention around other blind people.
Maybe you should try working with e-mails without looking at the screen and see how inconvenient it is to find the start of new text in a message where the new text is added at the end. Maybe you would change your mind.
Gene---- Original Message ----- From: "Mario Percinic" <mario.percinic@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:18 PM Subject: [nvda] Re: Questions
Niko very well said, you have my full support for your statements and the opinion about how to correctly behave with sited population. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Niko Carpenter" <nik62591@xxxxxxxxx>To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:55 PM Subject: [nvda] Re: QuestionsThis message is in response to Brian's post below: Brian's mail list account wrote: > I got hounded of a talking newspaper list a couple of years ago as Irefused to bottom post though I offered to cut all quoted material completely. I think bottom posting makes sequentially more sense, but I'm not saying people should bottom post; I'm saying they should intersperce their messages like I'm doing now, or just completely rewrite it.> Some people who are sighted are, um very intolerant and not very welcomming I find.Most people who are sighted are not aware of the accomidations that some blind people need, and to go on a mailing list where it is common practice to bottom post with a bunch of sighted people, for example, and try to change the way they do things, and you get mad when they wish to keep their practice is intollerant in my opinion.I understand that you feel like you are singled out as a blind person and that since people can change to make life easier for you and they don't, you feel upset and like people just don't care, but just try to think of things from their perspective.> Its no great effort for the sighted to scroll up and down after all. It's less of an effert for you to press control end. > BrianI'm not trying to change the way people feel, and if top posting is what people on this list prefer, I will do it because I'd rather be a part of a great mailing list than start an argument over stupid little indiscrepencies with the way people think. The reason I posted this was to give those who may not be aware of it an idea of how to format messages, so they can make their own decisions. But most importantly, I posted it because I want blind people to realize that the world doesn't evolve around them. There have been so many great things done for us, and rather than just say said company is fofilling our right, or that finally sighties realize what's happening in our world, you should be thankful.I do not refer to people as blindies or sighties. Being blind is part of me, and I'm not ashamed of it, but I'm not Niko Carpenter, a member of the blindy society, I'm just Niko, and I want everyone, blind and sighted to accept me for simply that. We are not blindies or sighties, we are people. The fact that I simply cannot see doesn't link me with a certain culture or life style. It simply means that I can't see, and so I must do things a little bit differently.NVDA is a great tool not only for blind people but for sighted people. For example, an IT worker at a company can use NVDA to plug a keyboard and some headphones into a server in a big server room and not have to worry about plugging in a monitor. It can be used for software developers or web site designers to test accessibility on their site. We shouldn't say that NVDA is only for the blind and sighties just don't understand. After all, go look at the history of Braille. It did not start with anyone who was blind.So before you have the us vs them mentality, just think about something for a moment: I've been asked by a lot of sighted people how I do things. I've been asked how my Braille watch works, how my iPhone works, how I use my computer, etc. And, I answer these questions purely in an educational sense. These are my friends, not some otherworldy beings, and when I tell them these things, they are extremely amaised and interested in what I have to say. That is much better than being hostile towards them. I'm sure there are several sighted people on this list, and if I were one of them, I'd feel alianated and afraid to talk because of this hostility. So before you point your fingers at people, just remember, if you point too long, they might take notice and start pointing back.-- Niko Carpenter http://gtc.ath.cx To post messages to the list send email to nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To modify your NVDA Email settings go to: http://www.freelists.org/list/nvdaThank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:http://www.nvda-project.org/ To get the latest NVDA snapshot: http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ Report bugs or make feature requests at: http://trac.nvda-project.org/ Message Archive: http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvdaTo post messages to the list send email to nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To modify your NVDA Email settings go to: http://www.freelists.org/list/nvdaThank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:http://www.nvda-project.org/ To get the latest NVDA snapshot: http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ Report bugs or make feature requests at: http://trac.nvda-project.org/ Message Archive:http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
To post messages to the list send email to nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To modify your NVDA Email settings go to: http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: http://www.nvda-project.org/ To get the latest NVDA snapshot: http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ Report bugs or make feature requests at: http://trac.nvda-project.org/ Message Archive: http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda