You may get the information you want or need but NVDA simply does not
provide adequate information when using Word for many users. Since you
don't hear whether a document is double or single spaced and you also
don't
hear whether paragraphs are indented and to what extent when you use
insert
f, you are not getting what would be considered adequate information for a
large number of users. If I were preparing a document for a course, or
for
business purposes or some other professional purpose, it would simply not
be
satisfactory for me to issue the command that would change line spacing
but
not be able to verify that the command had been carried out. If I issued a
command to indent the first line of paragraphs by point five or 1 inch, it
would not be adequate for me not to be able to verify this. If you issue
a
command, it is usually carried out. But it cannot be assumed and it is of
crucial importance to be able to verify it. You may also change layout in
different parts of a document and it is simply not adequate not to be able
to verify this in professional or student situations with a screen-reader.
If I worked in an office environment where
productivity and working with others on collaborative documents is
required, NVDA simply doesn't cut it when using Microsoft Word. If I were
a college
student collaborating on a document with other sighted students, the same
is
true. NVDA does not notify you of comments, and, though I haven't tested
this, I doubt you are notified of footnotes, and end notes. How many
people who are discussing this question are aware of the
JAWS feature that allows you to use quick navigation keys similarly to the
way you would use them on an Internet page. You can move by heading, move
to the next footnote, move to the next revision, the next bookmark, and
the
next comment. You can move at least in a few other ways I haven't listed.
These are important to productivity and efficiency for many users.
Let's move, briefly to one or two other areas of NVDA's performance and
abilities. Editing a message in Outlook Express is cumbersome and
important functions
and commands don't work as expected. I already said that I can't get
information as to whether Mp3 Direct Cut is recording when I issue the
record sequence. Mp3 Direct Cut is a very popular recording program among
blind people who record material.
I am not in any way disparaging the advances of NVDA. I am not in any way
minimizing its importance. I'm trying to provide a more realistic
assessment of the program. It will meet many users' needs. It will not
meet many other users needs.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Stewart" <stewart_1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 7:06 PM
Hey Burt,
For word processing like I told Jane I use MSWord 2000...dated but still
works! Most of the online teaching I do I use Blackboard/WebCT and as its
pretty browser based I can navigate it fine with NVDA... Well, so far.
I've
only been using NVDA for a month now but so far I've hit no snags. ;)
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "burt henry" <burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 5:29 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting
What programs do you use for word processing, and collaboration where
you
teach? Do you use mostly the same aps as your sighted coworkers, or
special aps? (not including NVDA of course...lol...)
Thanks/just trying to learn what is going on.
Burt Henry
On 6/22/2010 6:00 chela, Mike Stewart wrote:
+1
$500 for a JAWS upgrade? No thanks... NVDA works fine for what I need
(and as a college prof I use just as much formatting as a student) and
it works just as good as JAWS ever did.
Mike
----- Original Message ----- From: "chris hallsworth"
<christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 3:55 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting
I also mentioned Window-Eyes, but we'll not talk about that here.
Signed by Chris Hallsworth
E-mail and Facebook: christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx
Skype: chrishallsworth7266
Twitter: http://twitter.com/christopherh40
On 22/06/2010 22:22, Alex H. wrote:
Things improve over time. It's only been a few years, and NVDA is
improving by the day. And NVDA has video hooking in the snapshots
now.
It's not complete yet and still needs a bit of work, but it is
noticeable, and it is there. You can control the mouse using NVDA,
just not in the same as JAWS operates. Sure, it's not as fine-grain
control as JAWS and you don't actually control the mouse directly,
but
you can route the mouse to places and use window navigation to get at
things like with JAWS. I have a feeling this might change down the
road if enough people give constructive feedback to the devs on why
such a feature is important and would differ from object navigation.
As a sidenote, NVDA's review capabilities have improved greatly due
to
the new video hooks.
NVDA doesn't try and mimic other screen readers; what's the point of
inventing the wheel over and over again?
I do agree that at present, NVDA probably can't handle corporate
database programs or other complex applications, unless they use IA2
properly. With video hooks this will change over time and as NVDA
matures, I'm sure we'll see support for all of Wor'ds features, as
well as OpenOffice, MS PowerPoint, Access, etc. Time will tell.
But this is just my opinion and I'll say no more.
Alex
On 6/22/10, chris hallsworth<christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
But what I am saying is that perhaps in the future it may meet a lot
of
users' need. I am in total agreement that it won't meet some users
now,
but I predict that will change in the future.
Signed by Chris Hallsworth
E-mail and Facebook: christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx
Skype: chrishallsworth7266
Twitter: http://twitter.com/christopherh40
On 22/06/2010 21:57, Gene wrote:
And you also told her that NVDA surpasses JAWS or other for profit
screen-readers for most blind users. I have no objection to
promoting
NVDA. I encourage it. But I disapprove of making exaggerated claims
such
as that it will meet most blind users needs as well or better than
JAWS or
other for profit screen-readers. I'm not counting limited ones like
System Access. I'm discussing JAWS, Window-eyes and other similarly
powerful screen-readers.
You appear to not accept facts because of ideology. I've written
about
this before and presented facts. The facts are that NVDA does not
have a
simulated mouse. NVDA does not have a video intercept. NVDA is not
user
definable through set files or frames and thus the somewhat
knowledgeable
user who can customize Window-eyes and JAWS cannot do so with NVDA.
The
stable release of NVDA does not yet have video hooks. And NVDA
simply
doesn't provide as much support for Microsoft Word, to give one
very
specific and concrete example as JAWS or Window-eyes. In a Word
document,
issue the command insert f. Listen to the information you get about
formatting and font attributes. Then do the same in JAWS. You will
hear
whether a document is single or double or tripple spaced with JAWS.
If
you have indented the first line of paragraphs, you will hear this
announced. You won't hear either of these things announced with
NVDA. I
don't know what other information you may not be able to get easily
or at
all. I seldom use Word and I am no expert in Word. I'll let those
who
know more provide more information, if they wish. but it should be
mentioned that NVDA does not have the quick navigation keys feature
available in JAWS when working with Word documents. Such features
may be
important in work situations. Yet you persist in claiming that NVDA
is as
good as JAWS for most blind users. The fact is that it will meet
many
blind users needs well. And another fact is that it is not nearly
as
powerful as JAWS or other similarly powerful screen-readers.
Misrepresenting the program to a rehab counselor who deals with
screen-readers in the work place is not helping her properly
evaluate the
program. I will not comment on any further posts from you, chris,
on
this subject on the list in the future. I've made my position as
clear as
I can and given concrete examples. I've written about this more
than
once. I see no point in repeating myself in the future. I'm asking
you
to consider whether you are helping your credibility or the
credibility of
NVDA by exaggerating its abilities and raising false expectations.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris hallsworth"<christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:<nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:15 PM
That's what I told my worker. Initially it was rubbish at the
beginning,
but then I told her that it's been decent and well received for
under a
year now.
Signed by Chris Hallsworth
E-mail and Facebook: christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx
Skype: chrishallsworth7266
Twitter: http://twitter.com/christopherh40
On 22/06/2010 21:09, Alex H. wrote:
I've been spreading the word too. I talked to a couple parapros
and
AT trainers about NVDA and they've tried it and said it's really
great. I mean, the project's only about three years old, and it's
gotten exponentially more aweesome with every release. Hats off
to
Mick and James and anybody else helping to develop a superb
screen
reader that does everything I want it to, and nothing I don't.
To NVDA!
Alex
On 6/22/10, burt henry<burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Good man. This is more important than many may realize as after
a while
we forget just how many ppl have never even heard of NVDA, or
heard of
it a year or more ago when it was much more limited. Especially
among
non-techys who may not have contact with more tech savvy blind
people
it
is still easy to live a life ignorant of the bliss of the
NVDA-verse...lol...
I do hear more about NVDA all the time, so we are making
progress, and
whether it's assisting one blind contact to install or learn to
use
some
feature of NVDA, or speaking to a rehab pro things will snowball
as
James, Mick, and crew are holding up their end admirably.
Just for reference, I'd not even heard of NVDA until I saw these
unknown
initials on a usenet group a few times, and asked "what the h e
double
toothpicks is NVDA". As I am a proponent of FOS when possible I
decided
to try, and fortunately it wasn't all that long before the
2009-beta
came out, and it no longer was a case of hanging with NVDA a bit
because
of abstract principles and the price, but as close as there is
to true
love when it comes to software.
Cheers,Burt
On 6/22/2010 5:51 café, chris hallsworth wrote:
Hello all,
I am just writing to let you know I have recommended NVDA to a
rehab
worker I am going to have. She came and have a chat to me to
talk
about
what I would like to do when I get my own place. Getting back
on
topic,
she asked what screen reader I use, and I told her about NVDA.
She was
very interested in the fact it's free and open source and, for
most
users, surpasses JAWS or other commercial products. So she is
going to
check this out and hopefully recommend it to her clients.
Well just wanted to let you know that I am definitely promoting
NVDA
to
the VI community.
Remember that open source software is community supported!
Please
donate if
you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop
Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access,
an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gidâ;? 01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access,
an open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access,
an open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate if
you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid�01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip