[nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting

Hi Burt,

I just want to highlight an important point you made. Where voc-rehab
is concerned, there should be a lot of customized screen reading
training, not all people's needs are the same. I can't agree more. I
get tired of people stuffing JAWS down client's throats for simple
tasks like email and web browsing. If that's a mojority of what
somebody does, they will hardly need the power and price gouging of
JAWS.

Alex

On 6/23/10, burt henry <burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Gene,
>   You are of course correct about office aps support being of vital
> importance to many business situations, and to the majority of
> enterprise IT deployments.  I doubt that anyone on this list can give a
> clear and definite answer of "most" or "majorities" of blind users, but
> I do suspect that a majority of blind-workers employed by  large and
> medium sized corporations would be better served by Win-eyes, JFW and
> quite possibly Hal.
> On the other hand a blind person who is running there own business has
> the choice of what software to use, and can pick and choose among
> available software aps that may meet their needs and at the same time be
> accessible with NVDA. Others, may use a computer for a range of tasks
> that do not include the highest levels of word processing that  may be
> better served by a simpler, and to many more intuitive screen-reader
> like NVDA.  Without siting examples in the interest of brevity, NVDA is
> considered more stable in many situations by many users, and in
> situations where there is no voc-rehab system to provide, and pay for
> training  in advanced use and configuration I feel that NVDA is now to a
> point (or will be with the first stable video-hooks integrated version)
> that a blind person could be up and running/employable more quickly and
> easily using NVDA than with it's commercial alternatives.
> I continue that most commercial screen-reader users do _not learn how to
> use most of their advanced features, and quite often don't take
> advantage of many of these that could make their work and or play go
> better.  Part of the point though is that if you spend hours learning
> how to set up and use something, you will need to use it for many more
> hours in most cases to recuperate this time. If this makes the
> difference in getting or holding a good job then it is often worth both
> the time and money.
>    one more feature that once understood by the user that might be a
> game changer for many is the graphics labeler function that we do not
> have with NVDA. And although I'm starting to see some aps-modules and
> specialized drivers appearing for NVDA making applications accessible to
> and with NVDA, from my limited understanding although .python is a
> powerful and relatively easy to learn language, it is still easier to
> write scripts for window-eyes and jaws. (please feel free to correct
> this developers/programmers).
> And one area where NVDA may be able to surpass other screen-readers, but
> and where all screen-readers should probably concentrate energy these
> days is with cloud-based aps and services in general, and especially
> Google As and third party aps that are becoming an important part of
> this alternative used in more and more education and business settings;
> both small and large. I am not sure how well screen-readers in general,
> and NVDA in the specific work with MS share point. This also will be
> more and more important now that office 2010 is out.
> The bottom line, where voc-rehab services are available there needs to
> be a much more case by case analysis made as to which screen reader is
> best for a given client.  I think there are many cases where NVDA may be
> as good a solution as any. Screen access which I don't find meets my
> needs seems to be a very good alternative for some others. I've heard
> from many that for MS office window-eyes is the best. I've used jaws,
> and find it very good for MS-office, and I'm sure that if I had the time
> I could find many powerful features that could be of benefit for
> data-base work, sound-editing and with some scripts programs like
> firefox, winamp, Nero and others have good access now and some extra
> non-native features in the case of web-browsers.
> I find NVDa's use of standard windows key-strokes an advantage when
> working on machines other than my own, and for explaining programs to
> others as well as having them explained to me. And for portable use NVDA
>   has it's advantages over the competition as well, but will continue to
> have the same limitations that it has when installed on one's computer.
> Lastly I want to agree with who ever said that NVDA is advancing at an
> impressive rate. It has certainly closed the gap between itself and
> other screen-readers, sometimes by strong steady progress, and at times
> by leaps and bounds.  I have confidence and faith that this will
> continue, and before the end of the year I think that what Chris and
> others have said will be true for many more users than it is today.
>
> On 6/22/2010 4:53 chela, Simon Jaeger, Laptop Edition wrote:
>> I will say this. I rarely, if ever, have to load jaws on this machine,
>> and if I do, it's usually to verify something or play monopoly, which
>> still hasn't been given proper NVDA support and has slightly shaky sapi5
>> support. It meets my needs well, and I use the computer for quite a
>> number of things. There are a number of things it would be nice to have,
>> and I'll never call it a complete, fully functional screen reader. But
>> it's getting there, and it's doing it a lot faster than JAWS or even
>> window eyes have done so far. It's definitely to the point where a
>> commercial screen reader is not worth $1000 over something like NVDA.
>> Worth some amount of money, perhaps. But not that much.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:57 PM
>> Subject: [nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting
>>
>>
>>> And you also told her that NVDA surpasses JAWS or other for profit
>>> screen-readers for most blind users. I have no objection to promoting
>>> NVDA. I encourage it. But I disapprove of making exaggerated claims such
>>> as that it will meet most blind users needs as well or better than
>>> JAWS or
>>> other for profit screen-readers. I'm not counting limited ones like
>>> System Access. I'm discussing JAWS, Window-eyes and other similarly
>>> powerful screen-readers.
>>>
>>> You appear to not accept facts because of ideology. I've written about
>>> this before and presented facts. The facts are that NVDA does not have a
>>> simulated mouse. NVDA does not have a video intercept. NVDA is not user
>>> definable through set files or frames and thus the somewhat knowledgeable
>>> user who can customize Window-eyes and JAWS cannot do so with NVDA. The
>>> stable release of NVDA does not yet have video hooks. And NVDA simply
>>> doesn't provide as much support for Microsoft Word, to give one very
>>> specific and concrete example as JAWS or Window-eyes. In a Word document,
>>> issue the command insert f. Listen to the information you get about
>>> formatting and font attributes. Then do the same in JAWS. You will hear
>>> whether a document is single or double or tripple spaced with JAWS. If
>>> you have indented the first line of paragraphs, you will hear this
>>> announced. You won't hear either of these things announced with NVDA. I
>>> don't know what other information you may not be able to get easily or at
>>> all. I seldom use Word and I am no expert in Word. I'll let those who
>>> know more provide more information, if they wish. but it should be
>>> mentioned that NVDA does not have the quick navigation keys feature
>>> available in JAWS when working with Word documents. Such features may be
>>> important in work situations. Yet you persist in claiming that NVDA is as
>>> good as JAWS for most blind users. The fact is that it will meet many
>>> blind users needs well. And another fact is that it is not nearly as
>>> powerful as JAWS or other similarly powerful screen-readers.
>>> Misrepresenting the program to a rehab counselor who deals with
>>> screen-readers in the work place is not helping her properly evaluate the
>>> program. I will not comment on any further posts from you, chris, on
>>> this subject on the list in the future. I've made my position as clear as
>>> I can and given concrete examples. I've written about this more than
>>> once. I see no point in repeating myself in the future. I'm asking you
>>> to consider whether you are helping your credibility or the
>>> credibility of
>>> NVDA by exaggerating its abilities and raising false expectations.
>>>
>>> Gene
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "chris hallsworth" <christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:15 PM
>>>> That's what I told my worker. Initially it was rubbish at the beginning,
>>>> but then I told her that it's been decent and well received for under a
>>>> year now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Signed by Chris Hallsworth
>>>> E-mail and Facebook: christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Skype: chrishallsworth7266
>>>> Twitter: http://twitter.com/christopherh40
>>>>
>>>> On 22/06/2010 21:09, Alex H. wrote:
>>>>> I've been spreading the word too. I talked to a couple parapros and
>>>>> AT trainers about NVDA and they've tried it and said it's really
>>>>> great. I mean, the project's only about three years old, and it's
>>>>> gotten exponentially more aweesome with every release. Hats off to
>>>>> Mick and James and anybody else helping to develop a superb screen
>>>>> reader that does everything I want it to, and nothing I don't.
>>>>> To NVDA!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alex
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/22/10, burt henry<burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>> Good man. This is more important than many may realize as after a
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> we forget just how many ppl have never even heard of NVDA, or heard of
>>>>>> it a year or more ago when it was much more limited. Especially among
>>>>>> non-techys who may not have contact with more tech savvy blind people
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is still easy to live a life ignorant of the bliss of the
>>>>>> NVDA-verse...lol...
>>>>>> I do hear more about NVDA all the time, so we are making progress, and
>>>>>> whether it's assisting one blind contact to install or learn to use
>>>>>> some
>>>>>> feature of NVDA, or speaking to a rehab pro things will snowball as
>>>>>> James, Mick, and crew are holding up their end admirably.
>>>>>> Just for reference, I'd not even heard of NVDA until I saw these
>>>>>> unknown
>>>>>> initials on a usenet group a few times, and asked "what the h e double
>>>>>> toothpicks is NVDA". As I am a proponent of FOS when possible I
>>>>>> decided
>>>>>> to try, and fortunately it wasn't all that long before the 2009-beta
>>>>>> came out, and it no longer was a case of hanging with NVDA a bit
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> of abstract principles and the price, but as close as there is to true
>>>>>> love when it comes to software.
>>>>>> Cheers,Burt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/22/2010 5:51 café, chris hallsworth wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>> I am just writing to let you know I have recommended NVDA to a rehab
>>>>>>> worker I am going to have. She came and have a chat to me to talk
>>>>>>> about
>>>>>>> what I would like to do when I get my own place. Getting back on
>>>>>>> topic,
>>>>>>> she asked what screen reader I use, and I told her about NVDA. She
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> very interested in the fact it's free and open source and, for most
>>>>>>> users, surpasses JAWS or other commercial products. So she is
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> check this out and hopefully recommend it to her clients.
>>>>>>> Well just wanted to let you know that I am definitely promoting NVDA
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the VI community.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
>>>>>> donate if
>>>>>> you can because even a little can help a lot:
>>>>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>>> open
>>>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>>> NVDA on Facebook:
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
>>>>>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>>>>>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>>>>>> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
>>>>>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>>>>>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>>>>>> NVDA with display hooks:
>>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>>>>>>
>>>>> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
>>>>> donate
>>>>> if you can because even a little can help a lot:
>>>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>>> open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>>> NVDA on Facebook:
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid?01265515
>>>>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>>>>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>>>>> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
>>>>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>>>>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>>>>> NVDA with display hooks:
>>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>>>>>
>>>> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
>>>> if you can because even a little can help a lot:
>>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>>> open
>>>> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>>> NVDA on Facebook:
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
>>>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>>>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>>>> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
>>>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>>>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>>>> NVDA with display hooks:
>>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
>>> donate if you can because even a little can help a lot:
>>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>>> To post messages to the list send email to
>>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>>> open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>>> NVDA on Facebook:
>>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
>>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>>> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
>>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>>> NVDA with display hooks:
>>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>>
>> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
>> if you can because even a little can help a lot:
>> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
>> To post messages to the list send email to
>> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
>> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
>> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
>> open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/
>> NVDA on Facebook:
>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
>> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
>> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
>> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
>> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
>> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
>> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
>> NVDA with display hooks:
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>>
> Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate if
> you can because even a little can help a lot:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
> To post messages to the list send email to
> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open
> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/
> NVDA on Facebook:
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
> The NVDA controler DLL is at:
> http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
> NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
> http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
> Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
> http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
> NVDA with display hooks:
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip
>
Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate if you 
can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid?01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Other related posts: