[nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting

Gene,
You are of course correct about office aps support being of vital importance to many business situations, and to the majority of enterprise IT deployments. I doubt that anyone on this list can give a clear and definite answer of "most" or "majorities" of blind users, but I do suspect that a majority of blind-workers employed by large and medium sized corporations would be better served by Win-eyes, JFW and quite possibly Hal. On the other hand a blind person who is running there own business has the choice of what software to use, and can pick and choose among available software aps that may meet their needs and at the same time be accessible with NVDA. Others, may use a computer for a range of tasks that do not include the highest levels of word processing that may be better served by a simpler, and to many more intuitive screen-reader like NVDA. Without siting examples in the interest of brevity, NVDA is considered more stable in many situations by many users, and in situations where there is no voc-rehab system to provide, and pay for training in advanced use and configuration I feel that NVDA is now to a point (or will be with the first stable video-hooks integrated version) that a blind person could be up and running/employable more quickly and easily using NVDA than with it's commercial alternatives. I continue that most commercial screen-reader users do _not learn how to use most of their advanced features, and quite often don't take advantage of many of these that could make their work and or play go better. Part of the point though is that if you spend hours learning how to set up and use something, you will need to use it for many more hours in most cases to recuperate this time. If this makes the difference in getting or holding a good job then it is often worth both the time and money. one more feature that once understood by the user that might be a game changer for many is the graphics labeler function that we do not have with NVDA. And although I'm starting to see some aps-modules and specialized drivers appearing for NVDA making applications accessible to and with NVDA, from my limited understanding although .python is a powerful and relatively easy to learn language, it is still easier to write scripts for window-eyes and jaws. (please feel free to correct this developers/programmers). And one area where NVDA may be able to surpass other screen-readers, but and where all screen-readers should probably concentrate energy these days is with cloud-based aps and services in general, and especially Google As and third party aps that are becoming an important part of this alternative used in more and more education and business settings; both small and large. I am not sure how well screen-readers in general, and NVDA in the specific work with MS share point. This also will be more and more important now that office 2010 is out. The bottom line, where voc-rehab services are available there needs to be a much more case by case analysis made as to which screen reader is best for a given client. I think there are many cases where NVDA may be as good a solution as any. Screen access which I don't find meets my needs seems to be a very good alternative for some others. I've heard from many that for MS office window-eyes is the best. I've used jaws, and find it very good for MS-office, and I'm sure that if I had the time I could find many powerful features that could be of benefit for data-base work, sound-editing and with some scripts programs like firefox, winamp, Nero and others have good access now and some extra non-native features in the case of web-browsers. I find NVDa's use of standard windows key-strokes an advantage when working on machines other than my own, and for explaining programs to others as well as having them explained to me. And for portable use NVDA has it's advantages over the competition as well, but will continue to have the same limitations that it has when installed on one's computer. Lastly I want to agree with who ever said that NVDA is advancing at an impressive rate. It has certainly closed the gap between itself and other screen-readers, sometimes by strong steady progress, and at times by leaps and bounds. I have confidence and faith that this will continue, and before the end of the year I think that what Chris and others have said will be true for many more users than it is today.

On 6/22/2010 4:53 chela, Simon Jaeger, Laptop Edition wrote:
I will say this. I rarely, if ever, have to load jaws on this machine,
and if I do, it's usually to verify something or play monopoly, which
still hasn't been given proper NVDA support and has slightly shaky sapi5
support. It meets my needs well, and I use the computer for quite a
number of things. There are a number of things it would be nice to have,
and I'll never call it a complete, fully functional screen reader. But
it's getting there, and it's doing it a lot faster than JAWS or even
window eyes have done so far. It's definitely to the point where a
commercial screen reader is not worth $1000 over something like NVDA.
Worth some amount of money, perhaps. But not that much.

Simon

----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:57 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: More NVDA promoting


And you also told her that NVDA surpasses JAWS or other for profit
screen-readers for most blind users. I have no objection to promoting
NVDA. I encourage it. But I disapprove of making exaggerated claims such
as that it will meet most blind users needs as well or better than
JAWS or
other for profit screen-readers. I'm not counting limited ones like
System Access. I'm discussing JAWS, Window-eyes and other similarly
powerful screen-readers.

You appear to not accept facts because of ideology. I've written about
this before and presented facts. The facts are that NVDA does not have a
simulated mouse. NVDA does not have a video intercept. NVDA is not user
definable through set files or frames and thus the somewhat knowledgeable
user who can customize Window-eyes and JAWS cannot do so with NVDA. The
stable release of NVDA does not yet have video hooks. And NVDA simply
doesn't provide as much support for Microsoft Word, to give one very
specific and concrete example as JAWS or Window-eyes. In a Word document,
issue the command insert f. Listen to the information you get about
formatting and font attributes. Then do the same in JAWS. You will hear
whether a document is single or double or tripple spaced with JAWS. If
you have indented the first line of paragraphs, you will hear this
announced. You won't hear either of these things announced with NVDA. I
don't know what other information you may not be able to get easily or at
all. I seldom use Word and I am no expert in Word. I'll let those who
know more provide more information, if they wish. but it should be
mentioned that NVDA does not have the quick navigation keys feature
available in JAWS when working with Word documents. Such features may be
important in work situations. Yet you persist in claiming that NVDA is as
good as JAWS for most blind users. The fact is that it will meet many
blind users needs well. And another fact is that it is not nearly as
powerful as JAWS or other similarly powerful screen-readers.
Misrepresenting the program to a rehab counselor who deals with
screen-readers in the work place is not helping her properly evaluate the
program. I will not comment on any further posts from you, chris, on
this subject on the list in the future. I've made my position as clear as
I can and given concrete examples. I've written about this more than
once. I see no point in repeating myself in the future. I'm asking you
to consider whether you are helping your credibility or the
credibility of
NVDA by exaggerating its abilities and raising false expectations.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "chris hallsworth" <christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:15 PM
That's what I told my worker. Initially it was rubbish at the beginning,
but then I told her that it's been decent and well received for under a
year now.


Signed by Chris Hallsworth
E-mail and Facebook: christopherh40@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx
Skype: chrishallsworth7266
Twitter: http://twitter.com/christopherh40

On 22/06/2010 21:09, Alex H. wrote:
I've been spreading the word too. I talked to a couple parapros and
AT trainers about NVDA and they've tried it and said it's really
great. I mean, the project's only about three years old, and it's
gotten exponentially more aweesome with every release. Hats off to
Mick and James and anybody else helping to develop a superb screen
reader that does everything I want it to, and nothing I don't.
To NVDA!

Alex

On 6/22/10, burt henry<burt1iband@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Good man. This is more important than many may realize as after a
while
we forget just how many ppl have never even heard of NVDA, or heard of
it a year or more ago when it was much more limited. Especially among
non-techys who may not have contact with more tech savvy blind people
it
is still easy to live a life ignorant of the bliss of the
NVDA-verse...lol...
I do hear more about NVDA all the time, so we are making progress, and
whether it's assisting one blind contact to install or learn to use
some
feature of NVDA, or speaking to a rehab pro things will snowball as
James, Mick, and crew are holding up their end admirably.
Just for reference, I'd not even heard of NVDA until I saw these
unknown
initials on a usenet group a few times, and asked "what the h e double
toothpicks is NVDA". As I am a proponent of FOS when possible I
decided
to try, and fortunately it wasn't all that long before the 2009-beta
came out, and it no longer was a case of hanging with NVDA a bit
because
of abstract principles and the price, but as close as there is to true
love when it comes to software.
Cheers,Burt


On 6/22/2010 5:51 café, chris hallsworth wrote:
Hello all,
I am just writing to let you know I have recommended NVDA to a rehab
worker I am going to have. She came and have a chat to me to talk
about
what I would like to do when I get my own place. Getting back on
topic,
she asked what screen reader I use, and I told her about NVDA. She
was
very interested in the fact it's free and open source and, for most
users, surpasses JAWS or other commercial products. So she is
going to
check this out and hopefully recommend it to her clients.
Well just wanted to let you know that I am definitely promoting NVDA
to
the VI community.

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate if
you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid?01265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip



Remember that open source software is community supported! Please
donate if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate
if you can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

Remember that open source software is community supported! Please donate if you 
can because even a little can help a lot:
http://www.nvaccess.org/wiki/Donate
To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings or view archives go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
NVDA on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=8601265515
The NVDA controler DLL is at:
http://www.nvda-project.org/nvdaControllerClient/
NVDA Snapshot Downloader:
http://nvdasd.webra-system.sk/
Get SkypeTalking for NVDA:
http://skypetalking.googlecode.com/
NVDA with display hooks:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3349789/display%20model%20snapshots.zip

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