[nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed

Yeah, I remember some Blazie basic...
10 print "welcome to a small gues the number program!"
11 targetnum=rnd(100)
15 input "your guess:"; guess
20 guess=val(guessnum)

25 if guessnum < targetnum then print guessnum, "is too low..."
30 if guessnum > targetnum then print guessnum, "is too high..."
35 if guessnum = targetnum then print "exactly! The number was ", targetnum, "and I forget how to count guesses, mine goes in a loop at the guess prompt, even if I guess the right number!"
Ok, not sure if that would work with the balzie compiler, I was using some basic port for the ZMachine which kept deleting my code thinking it was trash when it worked just fine, so I eventually gave up with it. Does this work?
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:30 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Now I wouldn't go as far as to not say anything on the list. Yes the list is to discuss exactly what you are discussing, but keep in mind that there is usually a much larger reason why things work the way they do sometimes. As James has also explained the information that NVDA is getting about the collapsed state of menus in Firefox is not the fault of the screen reader but it is the way the new accessibility framework being used in firefox exposes the information. As I also said in an earlier post yes it does introduce inconsistant behavior but what if NVDA gets ported to linux and it comes across an IAccessible 2 application and announces it wrong? Gene the problem actually is there are just too many accessibility frameworks floating around these days. Windows at this point has 3, MSAA, IAccessible 2, and UI Automation. Linux has 3 the one for the gnome desktop, the one for KDE and IAccessible 2. The Mac on the other hand, even though it is Unix based now, Apple has gone the way of Windows and developed there own proprietary accessibility model. But because the core of Mac OS 10 is Unix it could also understand IAccessible 2 frameworks. Now 2 of those 3 are windows only accessibility frameworks, MSAA and UI Automation. The one that is cross platform and open source is IAccessible 2. MSAA and UI Automation will only work on 1 operating system and one operating system only, Windows. What a gradual switch to IAccessible 2 does for NVDA is it gives it the ability to be ported to other operating systems. Granted that may not happen for quite sometime to come but I can guarantee that MSAA will not work on Linux or Mac OS. At the moment Firefox and Thunderbird are 2 applications that use the IAccessible 2 framework, but there are also plans to switch Open Office over to IAccessible 2 and if I am not mistaken the entire Windows UI can also be made to use IAccessible 2. So yeah for a time there are going to be those inconsistancies as you have pointed out but sometimes if you give things a bit of time and research into what they are doing it will make a bit more sense for the long term. I myself have been teaching too, since probably 1986 when I learned a bit about how to program in basic on the Commodore 16 and Apple 2E and Dos on IBM computers. It wasn't until about 1994 when I got my first Windows 3.1 computer and found out how different things were and how drasticly they had changed from what I knew. The basic that I knew although still around was not being used to program computers anymore. Windows was being programmed in a new language called C. To tell you the truth I have been struggling ever since to learn the C language because it is in no way like basic. That is the type of thing that is also happening right now in blind technology, the technology is changing from what we knew to something that is able to understand more of the new programming techniques that have not been accessible to us in the past. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Obviously, the list is not for the purpose I thought it was. I thought the list was to discuss NVDA. I would like to thank all who have appointed themselves the lists censors and feel free to insult anyone who violates what their consider the purpose of their list. If you aren't interested in the thread, skip it. This list is not a developers list. It is not a requirement that those who participate be developers. I am raising legitimate questions. How much time have you spent teaching? I have done a small amount of volunteer teaching and teaching for pay. I have seen the kinds of questions inexperienced people ask on lists. I have seen people struggle to understand some concepts other people learn very easily and quickly. A little less sanctimony and self-rightous condemnation would be appreciated. If this list is not designated for the purpose I thought it was, I will hold my silence and never complain about anything but bugs again. The list description states that the list is for the discussion of NVDA It does not say that interface questions are undesirable or off topic. Thanks ffor making me feel that my contributions might mean something.
I've said all I need to say in this thread. I won't waste more band width nor offend your sensibilities by discussing these questions further. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Commerford" <mcommerford@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:35 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
I'm totally amazed about the amount of band width this thread takes. I'm also amazed how much effort some people spend on preaching about what people can't figure out or learn. It seems that some people need to harp on the same issues every few months to make themselves feel extremely important. Now if those people actually could get down and dirty to fix such important issues we'd really have something. It makes more sense to me for the development team to work on real functional issues with NVDA. This thread may soon at least go away but rest assured it will come back when its champion sees fit to harp on it again.
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:26 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Well it just seems that they are much better things to debate than how NVDA announces things. Just because it does not announce things like Window Eyes, Jaws or System Access does not mean that it is not usable. In fact as I said IAccessible 2 is something that to my knowledge, none of the other screen readers even use yet. In fact System Access still does not even work with Firefox at all. So in my opinion, what makes System Access so much better than NVDA if it doesn't even work with Firefox. NVDA works with both IE and Firefox. Does the fact that System Access not working with Firefox mean that it is not in the plan? hmmm, perhaps we should ask and find out. Does the gradual swith to IAccesible 2 that is taking place mean that bugs will not be fixed? hmmm, perhaps we should ask and find out. Or perhaps we can debate about it all day and try to make NVDA like the screen readers that we all use. And see there in lies the problem, we can't expect NVDA to be exactly like System Access because that is what we are used to, or Window Eyes because that is what we are used to, or Jaws because that is what we are used to. Try Linux and see if Orca announces things like you are used to, try Mac OS 10 and see if that is like you are used to. My point is that all of the screen readers are going to announce things differently, and work differently in some way than what we are used to. So when the swith to IAccessible 2 takes place, does that mean the developers then have to go back through the program and change everything back to its default so that it can work on other operating systems because it wasn't what Windows users were used to? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:05 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
What difference does it make if the discussion is about the snapshots or the more finished product. The snapshots reflect the development of the software as it occurs. Choices that are made such as whether a menu says collapsed or not are not bugs but rather are decisions that are not likely to be reconsidered unless someone brings them up. Instead of criticizing me for "carrying on" perhaps you might consider that at least I care enough about NVDA to pay careful attention to such matters and bring them up for consideration. Are you saying that I and others should simply wait until the product is nearly finished or much further along, then finally bring something up just because the product is further developed? What is the purpose of the list if not to "carry on" about issues as they arise. 


And thanks for your explanation about IA2.
Gene----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Gene you know by now that the snapshots that are released are pre beta releases. They do not have the polished code that we all know and love from our beloved Jaws, Window Eyes and System Access. You also know that you have carried on about this kind of thing before. There was another post complaining about the pane thing being announced. You and I both know by now that the pane indicates to the developers that NVDA has focused on a control that NVDA has not been told what it is. So, it says pane so the developers know that the control is even there. Now there is another factor at work with what you are talking about this time. IAccessible and IAccessible 2. When reference is made to IAccessible, that is the old Microsoft MSAA thing that comes built into windows. IAccessible 2 on the other hand is an accessibility framework that was developed by IBM. While IAccessible 2 may seem to be the same thing they are in many ways 2 different things. In the beginning of IAccessible 2 it was meant as an extention of MSAA to fill in the gaps that MSAA being unfinished left. As time has gone on though IAccessible 2 has become its own accessibility framework used on more than just Windows. So yeah some of the controls you hear may actually sound a bit strange to people only familiar with windows. Keep in mind though that IAccessible 2 is being used on more than just Windows products. It is being used on Linux, Unix and sometimes even on Mac OS 10. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
You might not consider it a nonissue if you looked at the broader picture. NVDA is intended for use by all levels of computer users from beginner to advanced. Needlessly verbose and confusing and nonstandard speech and descriptions should not be used unless there is a good reason to do so. People often learn what to expect to hear and what things mean by listening to their screen-readers announcements. You cannot assume that those who use NVDA are not going to have to use other screen-readers. What if the use NVDA at home and something else at work. What if they are new users, start with NVDA, then need to use a different screen-reader for some reason. Many blind people receive abysmal training or almost no training. this list is composed of a self-selecting group of moderately good to exceptionally good users. It does not reflect the typical blind user.
Let's take one example of where oververbosity will cause problems for many users.
One thing blind Windows users need to do is to learn to remember the first item in a menu because no screen-reader other than NVDA numbers the menu items. If a blind person starts learning with NVDA, learns to listen for one of fifteen after looking through a menu and not to remember the first item may have needless confusion if they need to use another screen-reader. such extraverbosity produces dependence on one screen-reader. People complain about the JAWS help messages that are on by default such as, type in text in an edit field, to activate, press space bar, when on a button, etc. These messages produce dependence on JAWS for inexperienced users and discourages them from developing the skill and knowledge to use other screen-readers. Having menu items numbered in NVDA is just such a dependence producing feature. What is the NVDA documentation supposed to say when explaining why the numbers don't correlate to the number of items a blind person moves through in a menu and why numbers are skipped? Is it really useful to have to write something like this: When moving through menus, the user will note that every menu item is numbered. However, the numbers do not reflect the actual number of items you will arrow through. The numbers are usually higher than the number of items you will move through. If you start moving through a menu, hear one of ten, then down arrow and hear three of ten, then down arrow again and hear five of ten, the user should not worry. Menus contain separators that NVDA counts as menu items but you don't stop on them as you arrow through menus. You really aren't skipping menu items when you move. NVDA is simply counting items where you can't stop and which do nothing. Is it really worth introducing all this needless confusion and completely nonstandard performance into the screen-reader. Absolutely no other screen-reader I have ever worked with, JAWS, Window-eyes, System Access nor the old ASAW does this. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Here is an idea. Lets all put down the computers, quit stomping our feet like kids and take a step outside and enjoy the day. How NVDA is announcing things doesn't seem to be confusing people so much that they can't find their way to their email clients. So I believe it to be a non-issue. ----- Original Message ----- From: "List account (downstairs)" <bglists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
There will always be minimalists, I'm one of those, and those who do not find the verbosity at all annoying or distracting. I do, but you know what they say about pleasing all the people all the time... I think it seems to me just a bit silly having an extra description for the same thing on different applications which a sighed person would suggest were the same to look at. As I said earlier, when/if the menus start doing other clever things, let them have a new description, but having an extra one for no apparent reason is very peculiar. 
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Roberts" <bigd.vi.guy@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
Pane is also a window within a window. I like this announcement! What do you want to get rid of next, the object navigator??? come on! 

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Reiser" <metalhead1009000@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 11:56 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Menus announced as collapsed
I agree with this, and also to return to something else that's been discussed, I think the word pane should not be spoken as part of a window title unless we are talking about the contents pane of an html help dialogue. I'd rather it just tell me the name of the window that has focuss. Also in some dialogues when tabbing it gets confusing to hear pane when it's suppose to be a button or whatever. Thanks, 

Mike
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