[nvda] Re: HTML support

Just because sighted people do things a certain way doesn't mean that that is the best way for blind people to do them. Screen-readers reorganize web pages to remove columns and make the pages read in logical order. Right there, blind people are doing something differently than sighted users. The pages are organized differently. Being blind is not the same as being sighted. Blind people may often find that doing something differently than a sighted person gives better results. Every time you read Braille, you are doing something sighted people don't do. The question isn't whether what blind people do is identical to what sighted people do. The question is what method used by blind people allows the same task to be performed in the best manner. It's equality of accomplishing the task that is the question, not whether the method is identical. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Beasley" <p.beasley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:20 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: HTML support



It is an advantagebecause that is how sighted people work.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 12:42 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: HTML support
Technically, I don't know how System Access works as it does. I can tell you that you can work directly with all fields. There is no forms mode or equivalent. While it appears to be received wisdom that this is an advantage, I'm not so sure. It may avoid some confusion when people are learning but there are times when it is not an advantage and even a disadvantage. Here are the two examples I've come across from my limited trial of System Access: First, when working with combo boxes, you do have to open the combo box with control down arrow. That's fine except that you can't spell anything. If you hear an option in a combo box, you can't spell it because you have no cursor or virtual cursor. When using a screen-reader with a virtual cursor, you can move to the item in the combo box, then leave forms mode, or equivalent, then spell it to make sure it is the option you want. You may be able to use the System Access mouse to spell tthe item. I haven't used the System Access mouse much but it may be difficult to do this.
The other disadvantage to not having forms mode, or equivalent, is that it is more inconvenient to check work you do in a large edit field. There are times when I want to use a web form to write a letter to the editor or a detailed description of my evaluation of a program or a trouble shooting request. Since there is no forms mode, it's very easy to intend to move to the top of the edit field to review what I have written, use control home, move to the top of the page, and thus loose my place. When working in an edit field, the experienced user generally uses control home to move to the top of the field and that can't be done in System Access. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Beasley" <p.beasley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: HTML support
how does system access manage it? you do not have to hit enter when you come accross a form field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: HTML support



After playing with the buffer further in NVDA, I need to correct one
statement I made. The bypass mode isn't automatically turned on every time you get to an input field. It appears to be automatically turned on only when a page uses scripting to move you to an edit field. this results in inconsistent operation which will cause just the sort of confusion among lots of users that started this thread. Lots of users will have no idea why they can't move through pages at times or why movement commands such as f don't seem to work. You should need to press enter to turn on bypass mode even if you are moved to an edit field automatically. the user shouldn't be confronted with two completely different behaviors that vary depending on 
how one moves or is moved to an input field.

As far as my other comments are concerned, I now see that you can look
through a form and not turn on bypass mode. However, if you do turn it on to enter information into a field, as far as I know, there is no command to go back to using the buffer. This means that if I am filling out a form by down arrowing to read it as I fill it out, I can't do so unless I tab or shift to a place where no input field exists. this means I must loose my 
place in the form and who knows how many tabs or shift tabs might be
necessary to find a field that is not an input field. this is not just a 
problem for someone who fills out forms as I do.  What if someone looks
through a form, then starts filling it out and forgets some detail that can 
only be read while using the buffer.  For example, a field may not read
correctly while in bypass or there may be information I want to review
between fields. I should be able to issue a command and immediately leave 
bypass mode so I can review the screen in the usual way.

Gene

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