[nvda] Re: Avoiding accessibility APIs [was Re: NVDA and open office]

I actually got training for jaws but I hardly use jaws advanced features.
i hardly use jaws at all.
I hardly use hal at all, I don't use heaps of commands really.
At 12:08 p.m. 20/08/2007, you wrote:
You are right that far too many blind folks know little to nothing about how to use their screen reader. And, there is way too much training going on in far too many places that is bad or poor at best. And, a lot of that training is taking place at supposedly good rehab agencies who are not willing to pay the cost to get a good trainer.
Sadly, I see folks argue that there should be no requirement that a trainer needs a given level of knowledge in order to be a trainer. So, we end up with trainers that know little themselves doing a poor or unacceptable job and getting payed for training that they were not qualified to give.
Now, look at how easy the reading commands are in NVDA. But, I have had three people who are supposed computer trainers tell me that they thought NVDA commands were too hard. Well, unless we raise standards for trainers, and demand that training centers be more selective of who they hire for trainers this situation will continue to effect how well blind folks can use a computer even if they have had training.
The worst situation I ever saw was a guy who had received 6 months of training at a rehab center payed for by a state agency, and at the end of the training the guy didn't know where the "alt" key was on the keyboard and couldn't tell me how to read the current line with Jaws without pressing the up arrow and then the down arrow to get the line read to him. 




----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2007 7:17 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Avoiding accessibility APIs [was Re: NVDA and open office]


: I've been holding off from participating in this off topic thread but I'll
: make a comment from an entirely different perspective that is indirectly
: related to where the discussion is headed.
:
: Actually, I'll make two comments on different issues.
:
: First, I don't have the technical or user knowledge to discuss Linux in a
: knowledgeable manner. I haven't used it though I've used DOS and
: experimented a bit with Unix on shell accounts. Having said that, my
: impression is that functions such as plug and play are not nearly as well
: developed in Linux as in Windows and that other functions Windows makes a
: point of making increasingly easy to use such as automating networking as
: much as possible are not being done to anywhere near the same extent in
: Linux. If I am wrong on either of these points, I'll be happy to hear about
: it. The typical user, not those with specialized or sophisticated knowledge
: appears to me to be somewhat likely to have problems with Linux.
:
: My second comment regards accessibility. I never see the other side of the
: equation discussed whenever access issues come up. I'm referring to the fact 
: that most blind users of Windows know so little about how to work with
: screen-readers, Windows and programs that run under Windows that access is a 
: more or less meaningless concept for such people.  What's the point in all
: the work that is done by screen-reader developers when the moment a web site : makes some rather minor changes, loads of blind Internet users howl and yowl : that the site is now inaccessible. I can't tell you how many times I've seen 
: blind Internet users be unable to figure out how to use rather simple sites
: just because they don't know how to look around efficiently or what to look
: for. I can't tell you how many times I see people who don't know how to
: reply directly to the sender of an e-mail message received on an e-mail
: list. How many times have you seen requests by blind people for a list of
: keyboard commands for this or that program when almost everything they need
: to know in this respect can be found just by looking through some menus.
:
: Yes, access, for those who benefit from it is important and I'm not saying
: it isn't. What I am saying is that users have a responsibility to learn
: enough about their software, including the operating system and
: screen-reader to know something about what they are doing.
:
: I recently made an offer on another list to hold an online seminar
: discussing these sorts of skills and explaining and demonstrating them.
: There are over one-hundred people on the list and not one person sent me a
: message even asking for more information. I was going to charge ten dollars
: per person. I wasn't going to do seven or nine hours of work preparing and
: presenting the material and answering questions for free. If people aren't
: even willing to spend ten dollars for high quality instruction and
: discussion then I don't want to hear any complaints from them about
: accessibility. Lots of people who aren't willing to spend anything or learn
: in a consistent manner are far too eager to jump on the accessibility
: bandwagon when they don't have any idea if they can use the programs they
: are complaining about or the web sites they are complaining about.
:
: As in so many areas, little is expected of blind people in computer-related
: knowledge and skills. Much training is inferior and some is just plain
: unacceptable. Far too often, blind people are presented as victims rather
: than as having a responsibility to learn something.My main point is that
: some of this isn't blind people's fault. They aren't expected to be able to 
: do much and so they don't expect it of themselves.  Having said that, some
: of this attitude is the responsibility of blind people to change in
: themselves and for other blind people to try to promote such change. If the 
: emphasis is mostly on accessibility and not on the low expectations lots of
: blind computer users have of themselves and their belief that they can't and 
: shouldn't expect themselves to do much, all the access in the world won't
: help them much.  It's like making every city in the United States very easy
: to travel in with lots of public transportation.  If the blind person
: doesn't believe he/she can travel, not even to the extent of walking one or
: two blocks safely to a bus or train station, all the access won't accomplish 
: a thing for people who have such poor attitudes about what they can do and
: expect of themselves.
:
:
:
: Gene
:
: To post messages to the list send email to
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: To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
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: Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: 
: http://www.nvda-project.org/
: To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
: http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
: Report bugs or make feature requests at:
: http://trac.nvda-project.org/
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:
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:
To post messages to the list send email to
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Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows: 
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
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To post messages to the list send email to
nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
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