[nvda] Re: Audacity problem

Oh I agree with you there, but I also don't see anything wrong with ease of use commands being added to a screen reader's functionality. That is afterall one of the reasons behind the creation of Jaws scripts, set files and map files and of course app modules. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Beasley" <p.beasley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 7:49 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
I still maintain that we should be using standard windows commands if atall possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Greer" <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 1:44 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
NVDA does also. But I can also understand the reasoning behind Jaws also being able to use the space bar for links on the web. For example, suppose a screen reader user has motor skills problems or a cognitive disability. If a user has the use of only one hand, I could see where the space bar would be to that persons advantage to use it. Also in the case of a cognitive disability, it does add a sense of consistancy to the activation of controls. For instance you can activate a button or even a checkbox by using the space bar but not a link as a standard windows command. So, if a screen reader can compensate for that, and it makes it better for the users in question, then that is all the better for the users. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Beasley" <p.beasley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 6:07 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
yes! window-eyes tries to use standard windows commands if at all possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 8:27 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
The space bar is not the standard command to activate a link, enter is. I believe enter works in JAWS but that's just because of JAWS coding. When not using a screen-reader or other screen-readers, the space bar does not activate links. It is not an Internet Explorer command therefore Window-eyes rightly informs you it is not a valid command. Users should be careful to learn the proper Windows commands for things so this kind of confusion is avoided. If you use a command just because it works with one screen-reader, even when that screen-reader doesn't specify that command, you are learning an incorrect command. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Trenton Matthews" <afrang150@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:43 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
And sadly, for Window-eyes users, the only way to activate a link, is by pressing the "enter" key. Buttons, and checkboxes work, however links don't work that way. I wonder why GW Micro decided to make people do it that way. When trying to activate a link with the "spaceBar" in WE, it says: "Not a valid key press." What do you mean! Not a valid key press... That is too a valid key press! Ok, done arguing with the computer here... Just hope I can get a good reason for that from you all here. 
Trenton Matthews

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 3:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem


John and Debra

First, to John
I don't know why you say the player has the same issues with JAWS as with NVDA. If you have flash enabled in JAWS, the content can be seen and worked with. Access is better in later versions of JAWS but even JAWS 5.0 works with the page but with annoying behaviors. With NVDA, you can't work with the page at all.
Part of the confusion may be because Debra, in her messages doesn't specify adequately when she is talking about blind users and when she is talking about visually impaired users. Lots of blind people are used to sighted people referring to them as visually impaired because the sighted person is uncomfortable about using the word blind. Therefore, it is important to specify when you are talking about visually impaired users, blind users or both. also, since JAWS and Window-eyes have a virtual mouse, it wasn't clear from the first posts, at least not to me, if Debra was saying a blind person can access the buttons with only a physical mouse or a virtual mouse. Since NVDA doesn't have a virtual mouse, as far as I know, I decided she was talking about a physical mouse. 

Now, to Debra
Are you making the mistake of thinking that working with just one single blind person is sufficient to determine the best design? If you were designing a program for sighted users, would you only consult one sighted person to get his or her reaction to the program design? This approach makes no sense and falls back on the typical error of lumping all blind people together and believing that one individual blind person represents all blind people. If you are relying on just one blind person, I certainly hope you rethink your approach.
Second, you talk about using control enter or two keys on the keyboard to activate the buttons. Again, do you know the standard windows convention for working with buttons on the Internet? The space bar is the standard command. Screen-readers generally simply allow the user to use the space bar because this is a Windows convention. Some older versions of JAWS, still used by many blind people use control enter to perform a specific screen-reader command on the Internet. Unless you know that a combination of keys is not used by screen-readers for a screen-reader specific function, you shouldn't use it. You should use standard windows commands and conventions whenever possible. If the space bar is the standard convention for working with buttons whether flash or other, then that's what you should use. Again, if you went beyond consulting with just one blind person, you would catch these kind of problems much earlier. The only reason we are discussing that at all is because I happened to write a message that you responded to on a different subject. Had I not happened to try the beta version of Audacity with NVDA, I wouldn't have written my message, and you would have continued to work on your project with improper and inadequate consultation with enough blind people to understand how the product should be designed and the end result would be either more work later or an improperly designed product.
Also, why are you stating the Braille support requires additional and different coding than for speech access? No accessibility standard for applications that I know of makes this statement or assumption. Screen-readers that provide Braille support, as I understand the matter, provide means for a Braille user to get all relevant information for an application if the application is accessible. In other words, if the application works with speech, it should also work with Braille. It's the screen-reader design for Braille support that allows this, not additional code in the program itself. If I am wrong about this, I'm sure other knowledgeable list members will correct me but I have never heard of a program being designed with extra code for Braille support.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm saying that you need to consult with a representative number of knowledgeable blind people when designing an accessible program. You may want to consult not just with individuals but with knowledgeable blind people in representative organizations such as the NFB, National Federation of the Blind, and the ACB, American Council of the Blind. You may also want to consult with screen-reader developers. As of now, you appear to be proceeding with insufficient information. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Debra Riese" <debra.riese@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
That is why this is a work in progress, flash has it's own limitations, you can tab thru the controls and it may read, and yes, the visually impaired user has to use the mouse at the moment to read. That is why I am working with the blind user, as we go along he is telling me what is easiest. The Original MP3 player was made for the sighted, and it was noted that it was 
read by some screen readers which is how the project got started.
This is not a final product for release, it will be after which we will be working on Video Players with captioning. So little by little we are getting there. It is difficult to code for screen readers as we have to work around their limitations, and then to use FLASH or any other custom application needs its own coding, it's like trying to solve the game of CLUE. So be patient and we will get there. We have accepted the challenge 
and are working on it.
The end result it to ultimately create something that ALL users can use, 
sighted and unsighted.
All that screen readers do is read text, and as long as there is text on the screen it will be read. The method is to be able to code the keys to tab from button to button, have the button function with either a control/enter or two keystrokes on the users keyboard, and to place the text over the 
button,  This is also the limitation of the TTS voice files.
With the new web 2.0, w3 accessibility consortium, CS3 accessibility, everyone is working to make the internet more accessible for people of all disabilities. There will be alot more programs on the horizon - as there is one in the works called SILVIA, which will open more doors to developers and the like minded, right now it's proprietary and licensed per use, but my 
dialogue with them is that it will be made accessible later on.
My goal is to make these apps that can now be built using FLASH (not just a pretty face anymore) more functional for all users. My app has been in the 
works for just a couple of weeks.
Its more than just two three lines of code, developers have to make their apps for windows, macintosh, unix, visually impaired, braille users, and more, creating more platforms, each with their own coding methods. It's not one code fits all. Except for flash, which is more agreeable and why I chose to use it for this purpose. Flash 9 and future versions make the promise to make content more accessible to all users. So it's all coming 
down the pike and is closer than ever.

Deb


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