[nvda] Re: Audacity problem

Ah Gene we are on the same page after all. Now concerning flash and NVDA, no at the present time NVDA has no support built in for flash to my knowledge. And the comparison between the access of the flash control for Jaws and NVDA was an oversight on my part. I do tend to turn off flash support in Jaws for the simple reason that in most cases flash does more harm than good to screen readers. And, you guessed it I forgot to turn it back on. Now concerning the flash project, please understand that for many years flash was considered bad bad news to a screen reader. I myself am not familiar with flash programming but yes I do understand it is getting better as far as accessibility. I believe I can speak for Gene and myself in saying best of luck to you with the project, but please understand that yes please try to stay with Windows and screen reader access standards as much as you can. I am sure that if you have any questions of what needs to be done that there are alot of blind people that I know and I am sure Gene also knows that could help. I myself did not mean to come across so harsh, it is just that I believe that if a sighted programmer is trying to make their software accessible they themselves should familiarize themselves with the acceess software and try running through it themselves. Now you might say, but I don't know how to use Jaws or NVDA, and I say neither do many of the blind people that use them so you have to keep access as simple as possible for them. That is the reason for my comment of the tab key is a beginner's best friend. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 4:22 AM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem



John and Debra

First, to John
I don't know why you say the player has the same issues with JAWS as with NVDA. If you have flash enabled in JAWS, the content can be seen and worked with. Access is better in later versions of JAWS but even JAWS 5.0 works with the page but with annoying behaviors. With NVDA, you can't work with the page at all.
Part of the confusion may be because Debra, in her messages doesn't specify adequately when she is talking about blind users and when she is talking about visually impaired users. Lots of blind people are used to sighted people referring to them as visually impaired because the sighted person is uncomfortable about using the word blind. Therefore, it is important to specify when you are talking about visually impaired users, blind users or both. also, since JAWS and Window-eyes have a virtual mouse, it wasn't clear from the first posts, at least not to me, if Debra was saying a blind person can access the buttons with only a physical mouse or a virtual mouse. Since NVDA doesn't have a virtual mouse, as far as I know, I decided she was talking about a physical mouse. 

Now, to Debra
Are you making the mistake of thinking that working with just one single blind person is sufficient to determine the best design? If you were designing a program for sighted users, would you only consult one sighted person to get his or her reaction to the program design? This approach makes no sense and falls back on the typical error of lumping all blind people together and believing that one individual blind person represents all blind people. If you are relying on just one blind person, I certainly hope you rethink your approach.
Second, you talk about using control enter or two keys on the keyboard to activate the buttons. Again, do you know the standard windows convention for working with buttons on the Internet? The space bar is the standard command. Screen-readers generally simply allow the user to use the space bar because this is a Windows convention. Some older versions of JAWS, still used by many blind people use control enter to perform a specific screen-reader command on the Internet. Unless you know that a combination of keys is not used by screen-readers for a screen-reader specific function, you shouldn't use it. You should use standard windows commands and conventions whenever possible. If the space bar is the standard convention for working with buttons whether flash or other, then that's what you should use. Again, if you went beyond consulting with just one blind person, you would catch these kind of problems much earlier. The only reason we are discussing that at all is because I happened to write a message that you responded to on a different subject. Had I not happened to try the beta version of Audacity with NVDA, I wouldn't have written my message, and you would have continued to work on your project with improper and inadequate consultation with enough blind people to understand how the product should be designed and the end result would be either more work later or an improperly designed product.
Also, why are you stating the Braille support requires additional and different coding than for speech access? No accessibility standard for applications that I know of makes this statement or assumption. Screen-readers that provide Braille support, as I understand the matter, provide means for a Braille user to get all relevant information for an application if the application is accessible. In other words, if the application works with speech, it should also work with Braille. It's the screen-reader design for Braille support that allows this, not additional code in the program itself. If I am wrong about this, I'm sure other knowledgeable list members will correct me but I have never heard of a program being designed with extra code for Braille support.
I'm not trying to give you a hard time and I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm saying that you need to consult with a representative number of knowledgeable blind people when designing an accessible program. You may want to consult not just with individuals but with knowledgeable blind people in representative organizations such as the NFB, National Federation of the Blind, and the ACB, American Council of the Blind. You may also want to consult with screen-reader developers. As of now, you appear to be proceeding with insufficient information. 

Gene
----- Original Message ----- From: "Debra Riese" <debra.riese@xxxxxxxxx> 
To: <nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:28 PM
Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem
That is why this is a work in progress, flash has it's own limitations, you 
can tab thru the controls and it may read, and yes, the visually impaired
user has to use the mouse at the moment to read. That is why I am working with the blind user, as we go along he is telling me what is easiest. The Original MP3 player was made for the sighted, and it was noted that it was 
read by some screen readers which is how the project got started.
This is not a final product for release, it will be after which we will be 
working on Video Players with captioning.  So little by little we are
getting there.  It is difficult to code for screen readers as we have to
work around their limitations, and then to use FLASH or any other custom
application needs its own coding, it's like trying to solve the game of
CLUE. So be patient and we will get there. We have accepted the challenge 
and are working on it.

The end result it to ultimately create something that ALL users can use,
sighted and unsighted.
All that screen readers do is read text, and as long as there is text on the 
screen it will be read.  The method is to be able to code the keys to tab
from button to button, have the button function with either a control/enter 
or two keystrokes on the users keyboard, and to place the text over the
button,  This is also the limitation of the TTS voice files.





With the new web 2.0, w3 accessibility consortium, CS3 accessibility,
everyone is working to make the internet more accessible for people of all disabilities. There will be alot more programs on the horizon - as there is one in the works called SILVIA, which will open more doors to developers and 
the like minded, right now it's proprietary and licensed per use, but my
dialogue with them is that it will be made accessible later on.
My goal is to make these apps that can now be built using FLASH (not just a pretty face anymore) more functional for all users. My app has been in the 
works for just a couple of weeks.
Its more than just two three lines of code, developers have to make their 
apps for windows, macintosh, unix, visually impaired, braille users, and
more, creating more platforms, each with their own coding methods. It's not 
one code fits all.  Except for flash, which is more agreeable and why I
chose to use it for this purpose.  Flash 9 and future versions make the
promise to make content more accessible to all users.  So it's all coming
down the pike and is closer than ever.

Deb


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To post messages to the list send email to
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To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an open 
source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
http://www.nvda-project.org/
To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/
Report bugs or make feature requests at:
http://trac.nvda-project.org/
Message Archive:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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