[nvda] Re: Audacity problem

Sorry if I came across as offensive but it was all to just keep a simple rule 
in mind, if the user can't access it using the keyboard then 99 percent of 
screen reader user's can't access it.  The tab key is a beginner screen reader 
user's friend.  Many of the screen reader users out there don't know the 
advanced navigation tools that a screen reader has but all of them are shown 
that the tab key moves to the next control.  So, if that flash mp3 player can 
be made to go from control to control using the tab key then most of the battle 
is over.  Best of luck with it.  By the way I do like the song.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Debra Riese 
  To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2007 12:28 AM
  Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem


  That is why this is a work in progress, flash has it's own limitations, you 
can tab thru the controls and it may read, and yes, the visually impaired user 
has to use the mouse at the moment to read.  That is why I am working with the 
blind user, as we go along he is telling me what is easiest.  The Original MP3 
player was made for the sighted, and it was noted that it was read by some 
screen readers which is how the project got started. 

  This is not a final product for release, it will be after which we will be 
working on Video Players with captioning.  So little by little we are getting 
there.  It is difficult to code for screen readers as we have to work around 
their limitations, and then to use FLASH or any other custom application needs 
its own coding, it's like trying to solve the game of CLUE.  So be patient and 
we will get there.  We have accepted the challenge and are working on it. 

  The end result it to ultimately create something that ALL users can use, 
sighted and unsighted.  

  All that screen readers do is read text, and as long as there is text on the 
screen it will be read.  The method is to be able to code the keys to tab from 
button to button, have the button function with either a control/enter or two 
keystrokes on the users keyboard, and to place the text over the button,  This 
is also the limitation of the TTS voice files. 

  With the new web 2.0, w3 accessibility consortium, CS3 accessibility, 
everyone is working to make the internet  more accessible for people of all 
disabilities.  There will be alot more programs on the horizon - as there is 
one in the works called SILVIA, which will open more doors to developers and 
the like minded, right now it's proprietary and licensed per use, but my 
dialogue with them is that it will be made accessible later on.  

  My goal is to make these apps that can now be built using FLASH (not just a 
pretty face anymore) more functional for all users.  My app has been in the 
works for just a couple of weeks.

  Its more than just two three lines of code,  developers have to make their 
apps for windows, macintosh, unix, visually impaired, braille users, and more, 
creating more platforms, each with their own coding methods.  It's not one code 
fits all.  Except for flash, which is more agreeable and why I chose to use it 
for this purpose.  Flash 9 and future versions make the promise to make content 
more accessible to all users.  So it's all coming down the pike and is closer 
than ever. 

  Deb

   
  On 9/26/07, John Greer <jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
    Ok, I am still a bit confused as to the point of this email.  I also tried 
the page using Jaws and it seems to have the same issues with the page that 
NVDA has.  While there are accessibility features in some aspects of flash, the 
programmer of the flash application has to use those accessibility features.  
It is basically the same with any application.  If the programmer puts a bunch 
of bitmap images that look like knobs on the screen the screen reader can't do 
optical character recognition on the screen to see the knob's label.  What must 
happen in cases like that is the programmer must put in the identifying code 
that a screen reader needs to be able to tell what the control is.  While it is 
fine that a control may have a tool tip associated with the control, there 
still needs to be a standard keyboard access to the control.  Many sighted 
programmers although not all, don't realize that screen reader users do not 
access their computer using the mouse.  The same goes for the original subject 
of this thread.  Myself also being a Jaws scripter just finished scripting for 
a program called Mini Moog.  The only reason I was able to script for the 
program at all is because I still have enough sight to see all of the knobs and 
buttons that were placed in the application.  Unfortunately a scripting tool 
called JFW Technical nor a tool called bx could even see there were controls on 
the screen.  So, because I have a little sight I was able to tell jaws to go to 
certain points on the screen and then tell jaws what the control was.  All of 
this would not have even been necessary if the programmer of Mini Moog would 
have taken the time to put standard identifiers in the program during design 
time.  Trying to get a screen reader to do all of these things should not and 
probably will not fall on the shoulders of the screen reader programmers.  Some 
responsibility also has to come from the developer's of the applications 
themselves.  As for the original subject of the thread.  If the programmer's of 
Audasity will put in 2 or 3 lines of code as an identifier of those radio 
buttons, it would save the programmers of NVDA, Jaws, Window Eyes etc. hours of 
work trying to extend the capabilities of the screen reader to accomodate a 
single application.  Much of this has been of my own opinion but I hope it 
makes sense to some. 
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Debra Riese 
      To: nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
      Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:47 PM
      Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem

       
      o for crying out loud, must be careful with typos, I will copy and paste 
links from now on.  Funny just finished reading an article about that too, how 
these people are buying up typo domain names.  Cheez, you guys must've thought 
I was a crazy lady.    

      http://www.myspace.com/dkriese (copied and pasted)

      This MP3 is limited and not fully coded.  I will send everyone the copied 
and pasted links when the updated version is ready, 
       
      http://www.newdigitalmedia.net/KBrown/TextMP3Player.swf

      The above is the direct link to the model that is in progress NVDA reads 
all the text placed in the window, however, need to get it to read the file 
embedded on an HTML page needs coding, some of you may not see it becuase your 
browser needs to support the opening of SWF files.  The other problem is 
getting focus onto the the page itself once the visually impaired user gets 
there.  But if you mouse over the buttons and player NVDA does read it. 
       
      This is a work in progress.

      Deb


      On 9/25/07, Gene <gsasner@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
        I may send a report to the development team.  However, my concern was 
not
        just with Audacity.  If it only sees radio buttons in this program in 
        certain dialogs and no associated text, the text isn't seen on the 
screen at
        all which is demonstrated by using insert b to read the entire window, 
then
        this may be a problem that will be seen in other programs as well.  How 
many 
        I don't know but I thought the NVDA developers might want to examine  
the
        method used to display such text to determine the extent and ease of
        solution.

        Gene
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Greer" < jpgreer17@xxxxxxxxxxx>
        To: < nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:15 PM
        Subject: [nvda] Re: Audacity problem 


        > That could also be an issue you may want to bring up with the audasity
        > team. If it is still in beta then there is no better time than the 
        > present.  It does seem that because it doesn't work with other screen 
        > readers that also rely on MSAA info that it may be a Audasity UI 
problem
        > that should be addressed.
        > ----- Original Message ----- 
        > From: "Gene" < gsasner@xxxxxxxxx>
        > To: < nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
        > Sent: Monday, September 24, 2007 1:34 PM
        > Subject: [nvda] Audacity problem
        >
        >
        >>I was just experimenting with Audacity while using NVDA.  In the 
        >>preferences dialog, some items read correctly and some don't.  I'm 
using 
        >>the beta version, 1.3 though I believe these problems would be 
present in
        >>earlier versions as well.
        >> 
        >> So far, the specific problem I've found is that when you are on the 
file 
        >> formats part of the treeview, radio buttons are announced as you tab
        >> through the dialog but no associated text is read.  I haven't 
checked 
        >> much else yet but I did find that one other part of the dialog, when 
on 
        >> another item in the treeview is read properly.
        >> The following information may or may not make it easier to determine 
the 
        >> cause of the problem more quickly, but for what it's worth, the 
radio 
        >> buttons are not read properly by Narrator, Thunder, or Serotek 
(spelling)
        >> System Access.
        >>
        >> Gene 
        >> To post messages to the list send email to
        >> nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        >> To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
        >> http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda 
        >> Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an 
open
        >> source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
        >> http://www.nvda-project.org/
        >> To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
        >> http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ 
        >> Report bugs or make feature requests at: 
        >> http://trac.nvda-project.org/
        >> Message Archive: 
        >> http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
        >>
        >
        > To post messages to the list send email to 
        > nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        > To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
        > http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda
        > Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an 
open
        > source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
        > http://www.nvda-project.org/
        > To get the latest NVDA snapshot:
        > http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ 
        > Report bugs or make feature requests at: 
        > http://trac.nvda-project.org/
        > Message Archive: 
        > http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda
        >

        To post messages to the list send email to 
        nvda@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
        To modify your NVDA Email settings go to:
        http://www.freelists.org/list/nvda 
        Thank you for your continued support of Nonvisual Desktop Access, an 
open source free screen reader for Microsoft Windows:
        http://www.nvda-project.org/
        To get the latest NVDA snapshot: 
        http://www.nvda-project.org/snapshots/ 
        Report bugs or make feature requests at:
        http://trac.nvda-project.org/
        Message Archive: 
        http://www.freelists.org/archives/nvda

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