[ncolug] Re: Direction and Purpose? What a can of worms to open!!!
- From: Chuck Stickelman <cstickelman@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ncolug@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2011 14:47:42 -0400
OK. I agree.
Chuck
On Sat, 2011-09-17 at 23:08 -0400, Larry DiGioia wrote:
> I knew you wouldn't let that one get by! ; )
>
> I must first ask that you narrow this discussion to OS software, since
> that is usually what we are talking about on this forum. Quoting you:
> "we could end up with computers loaded with software that we could
> neither change nor remove"
> ... "we could end up" implies "personal" computers
>
> You can look at this many different ways -
>
> 1.) "We" - Most people are unable to add/remove OS software, on
> anything.
> 2.) what is a personal computer?
> 3.) what is software?
>
> Most computers today are embedded. So is the software, so hardly
> anyone is playing with them. Cars? But let's stay "personal" -
>
> tablet computers?
> phones? No alternatives there, that's for sure. And it doesn't get any
> more personal than those.
>
> My point simply being that, the kind of personal computers that have
> an OS that can be hacked or loaded or removed are disappearing
> quickly. You remember the "thin client" argument... it's been 10
> years, but we are finally getting there. The client turned out to be
> the browser, and of course google is leading the way toward the
> browser itself being the client OS. What else can you load on a
> chromebook? Why would you want to?
>
> On 09/17/2011 06:13 PM, Chuck Stickelman wrote:
> > Specifically, what software is loaded on computers that can not be
> > removed? Certainly true that most computers are loaded with software
> > that can not be changed... that's proof of how right rms was/is.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 07:31 -0400, Larry DiGioia wrote:
> > > MOST computers today ARE "loaded with software that we could neither
> > > change nor remove"
> > >
> > > On 09/15/2011 09:26 PM, Chuck Stickelman wrote:
> > > > If rms didn't have a government job what would he do?
> > > >
> > > > I'd guess that he'd still have come up with the GPL and the GNU
> > > > project. His "free" is not "free as in beer" it's "free as in
> > > > love".
> > > > The F in FOSS means that we, the lowly users, have the following
> > > > Freedoms:
> > > > * Freedom 0 is the freedom to run the software as you wish.
> > > > * Freedom 1 is the freedom to study and change the source code as
> > > > you wish.
> > > > * Freedom 2 is the freedom to copy and distribute the software as
> > > > you wish.
> > > > * Freedom 3 is the freedom to create and distribute modified
> > > > versions as you wish.
> > > > (http://flavor8.com/index.php/2005/12/20/rms-on-the-four-freedoms/)
> > > >
> > > > These four freedoms put the user in the drivers seat, without them
> > > > we could end up with computers loaded with software that we could
> > > > neither change nor remove. This is not the kind of world that a
> > > > free society should tolerate. This group will continue to focus on
> > > > software (and likely hardware, file & data formats, etc.) that
> > > > qualify as "Free" along the lines of rms' definitions.
> > > >
> > > > I will explore the current state of Open Source Societies and see
> > > > what aspects of them align with our group's direction.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the input!
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 15:36 -0400, hbkeultjes wrote:
> > > > > At one time I looked into Open Source Society like
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The New Zealand /Open Source Society/ <http://nzoss.org.nz/>
> > > > >
> > > > > nzoss.org.nz/ - Cached
> > > > > <http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aZ6gTO64_PYJ:nzoss.org.nz/+open+source+society&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a>Similar
> > > > >
> > > > > <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=DCb&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&biw=1358&bih=539&q=related:nzoss.org.nz/+open+source+society&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=efxwTtm2N8aEsALN0JDUCQ&ved=0CCsQHzAC>
> > > > > You +1'd this publicly. Undo
> > > > > <http://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=s&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1358&bih=539&q=open+source+society&btnG=Google+Search#>
> > > > > The New Zealand /Open Source Society/ is a non-profit organisation
> > > > > set
> > > > > up to educate, advocate and advance the use of Open Source Software
> > > > > in
> > > > > New Zealand. *...
> > > > >
> > > > > and another one I found then in Holland.
> > > > >
> > > > > If we are to broaden our horizon we might also invite Bill Danuloff
> > > > > (retired IT manager at Gorman Rupp) to one of our meetings since he
> > > > > is
> > > > > trying to revive the data processing group that was very active here
> > > > > in
> > > > > the seventies.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with a previous writer about the F in FOSS. The Free seems
> > > > > to
> > > > > be a Stallman thing and while I have nothing against Richard Stallman
> > > > >
> > > > > and have, as a matter of fact, a high regard for his IT mind, what
> > > > > would
> > > > > he do if he did not have some government/university job that was
> > > > > paying
> > > > > his bills?
> > > > >
> > > > > Henry Keultjes
> > > > > Mansfield Ohio USA
> > > > > *
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Jim Dolan wrote:
> > > > > > I almost feel I should apologize for this whole thing. As a
> > > > > > regularly
> > > > > > attending participant of the meetings over the past couple of years
> > > > > > (and one of those looking for them over the summer), I was
> > > > > > surprised
> > > > > > at the resulting discussion when I simply asked about next month's
> > > > > > meeting. (Yes I am that conceited as to believe that a silly
> > > > > > question
> > > > > > of mine started a discussion like this <grin>.)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The good news is that the discussion is begun and many are adding
> > > > > > their views. I will add mine here. I was introduced to the group
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > the "guru" among my circle of friends who helped keep their windows
> > > > > > based machines running. I was told it might be interesting. I was
> > > > > > also told it was a group to learn from. I have learned from this
> > > > > > group, so, thank you all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > However, when I was invited to attend a meeting, I was told it was
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > "general interest" Linux group. I believe THAT group would have
> > > > > > attracted more members - one aimed at students, curious people,
> > > > > > home
> > > > > > users, people with a need for an answer not available from
> > > > > > commercial
> > > > > > enterprise computer providers. What I found when attending
> > > > > > meetings
> > > > > > can be divided into three categories: Lecture on one aspect of
> > > > > > networked, enterprise computing, Project presentation, or meeting
> > > > > > broke down. The last was usually the most productive for those not
> > > > > > part of the five or six people who might have been co-workers
> > > > > > somewhere. With my apologies to those now indicted, turning a
> > > > > > couple
> > > > > > of computers into a new phone system is really neat and
> > > > > > interesting,
> > > > > > but to someone w/o a surplus of old phone hardware, not one they
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > going to pursue, or even be able to. " I used this set of hardware
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > software to allow me to take control of a client's computer system
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > fix their accounting program and it saved me a trip to Phoenix." I
> > > > > > understand that is what people end up doing all day at their job,
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > is NOT what someone not in that job does all day.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Anyone want to make the group more inclusive? There are plenty of
> > > > > > things to talk about that are of general interest and that work
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > if we use FOSS or Linux solutions. Give people a chance to
> > > > > > discover
> > > > > > those ideas. I am all in for FOSS discussions and implementations.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What can my son do with a FOSS solution for his Astronomy or
> > > > > > Physics
> > > > > > degree program at school? What can my friend do with an old
> > > > > > machine
> > > > > > to make let them stay online and in touch with friends? How can
> > > > > > one
> > > > > > safely install Linux so as to not break their one computer that
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > need to keep working for school, home, finances? What programs are
> > > > > > available from the FOSS community to help them? Where are the fun
> > > > > > programs to help their kids learn, grow, and just have fun with a
> > > > > > computer? I learned many very useful things back in the day (DOS)
> > > > > > simply by getting together with a group of people with some
> > > > > > curiosity.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > First idea: Unless it is a cost that cannot be supported, keeping
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > Listserve (this medium) going is a no-brainer, many good things
> > > > > > come
> > > > > > from it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Second idea: Outreach to other communities. For example, the joint
> > > > > > NC/OSU campus community where our meetings have recently been held.
> > > > > > Or
> > > > > > perhaps people who have older machines and can't afford the latest
> > > > > > $1000 pc to let them keep up with daily use for email, web, etc.
> > > > > > While attending meetings, I was curious and interested in the fun
> > > > > > ways
> > > > > > old machines were being re-purposed to "lesser" tasks. However,
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > about helping someone who is not involved/required professionally
> > > > > > figure out how Linux and Open Office and other FOSS tools could
> > > > > > save
> > > > > > them a real buck at home.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Third idea: The switch to more of a FOSS orientation makes sense to
> > > > > > me. It may have to be presented in a manner easily understandable
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > general people, (FOSS is after all an acronym) but the idea is
> > > > > > good.
> > > > > > And presenting tools that are accessible to people from different
> > > > > > interests is something to aim for in this arena. Remember, Free
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > Open Source Software is good. FOSS is gobbledy gook to
> > > > > > non-computer geeks
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fourth idea: DO NOT abandon physical meetings if at all
> > > > > > avoidable!!!
> > > > > > If we need a space, work to find it. I'll try to come up with one
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > pushed. Though my first ideas won't have the nice presentation
> > > > > > hardware, etc. included. But believe it or not good things come
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > physical conversations and the simple ability to point to the other
> > > > > > guy's screen.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fifth idea: Publish topics for meetings if at all possible.
> > > > > > Whether
> > > > > > it be via the listserve, a blog, or papers on signs around campus
> > > > > > letting people know what is to be presented can attract attention.
> > > > > > For example, A simple sign telling people we will be discussing the
> > > > > > future of NCOLUG on October 6 at 6:30pm at (insert location) might
> > > > > > draw some curious people. Even more likely if the acronyms are
> > > > > > spelled out - North Central Ohio Linux Users Group, should we
> > > > > > become
> > > > > > North Central Ohio FOSS Free and Open Source Software Group?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hey, Kory, I'm sorry you cannot get to the meetings physically.
> > > > > > That
> > > > > > sounds like a fun project - getting you set up so you can attend
> > > > > > virtually. Since I deal with veterans from Korea, to Vietnam, to
> > > > > > Iraq
> > > > > > in my other world, helping people keep in touch is important to me
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > well. And your situation, whatever it may be, makes me curious
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > virtual meetings. Software? Webcams? etc.? Or was it to just be a
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > form of a listserve, after all that is what blogs and twitter
> > > > > > basically add up to, unless I'm totally mistaken about those
> > > > > > technologies.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oh, and I'd be willing to volunteer for the #2 project on the list
> > > > > > below. Got many questions on that front and an interest in
> > > > > > solving,
> > > > > > or getting answers to them. LOL, I could be the Manager of the
> > > > > > "Average" project. Compared to the members of this group I've met
> > > > > > so
> > > > > > far, I am pretty average.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks again,
> > > > > > Jim Dolan
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On 9/5/2011 7:37 PM, M. Knisely wrote:
> > > > > > > Like the others that have replied, I've not been able to make the
> > > > > > > meetings in a long time, but I very much want the concept to of
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > LUG to go on. I feel strongly that we should be project driven.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1: Big Blue Button - Scratch our itch for remote collaboration.
> > > > > > > 2: The "Average" desktop user setup.
> > > > > > > 3: Linux for Video Editing (NCOLUG the Podcast?!?!?)
> > > > > > > 4: Linux the SMB setup
> > > > > > > 5: Implementing PacketFence Network Admission Control system
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Each of these projects could be picked away at each "meeting"
> > > > > > > or throughout the month by the leader and teams for each project,
> > > > > > > then they could report on their progress and what they've
> > > > > > > learned during the monthly meeting. Each project could, and I
> > > > > > > feel
> > > > > > > should, be recorded in a blog form. Once each project reaches
> > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > the team agrees as success, a whitepaper "how-to" should be
> > > > > > > developed. Think of the LUG as Google's first hit for how-tos on
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > projects.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's my hope for the group. Hope being one thing and
> > > > > > > dedicating
> > > > > > > time another is one thing that I've realized recently. I know
> > > > > > > that I
> > > > > > > don't have the spare time to manage much, but I'd be willing to
> > > > > > > head
> > > > > > > up one project at a time. #1 and #5 above I will be doing over
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > next year regardless.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sure you'll make a good decision Stick... that's why we made
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > the Director Emeritus.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike K.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Chuck Stickelman
> > > > > > > <cstickelman@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:cstickelman@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > All,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Recent conversations on this list have gotten me thinking
> > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > our group, its purpose, and its goals. Honestly, the LUG is
> > > > > > > in a
> > > > > > > slump and I have no one to blame but myself. When the LUG was
> > > > > > > formalized a few years back a Board of Directors was elected
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > that body recognized a potential for the LUG to fall into a
> > > > > > > slump
> > > > > > > such as this. The Board created the position of Director
> > > > > > > Emeritus For Life as a mechanism for providing perpetual
> > > > > > > leadership in the event such a slump occurs. Soon after I
> > > > > > > was
> > > > > > > honored with the title. As Director Emeritus For Life it is
> > > > > > > my
> > > > > > > responsibility to provide guidance and direction to help us
> > > > > > > get
> > > > > > > out of this slump. I still believe strongly in the principles
> > > > > > > embodied in Linux and other Free and Open Source Software
> > > > > > > (FOSS). But the term FOSS is self-limiting; those same
> > > > > > > principles can be applied to hardware and data/file formats,
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > well as software. More importantly, FOSS principles are at
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > heart of the free exchange of ideas and information necessary
> > > > > > > in
> > > > > > > a free society. To that end, I believe that by focusing the
> > > > > > > group on one tool -- the Linux kernel and related utilities
> > > > > > > -- we
> > > > > > > have limited are our scope and our potential.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So what do we do? We can:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. keep doing what we've been doing, (and continue getting
> > > > > > > what we've been getting.)
> > > > > > > 2. end the LUG and let whatever files the void (such as it
> > > > > > > would be) file the void,
> > > > > > > 3. re-purpose the LUG to be more inclusive of FOSS and
> > > > > > > FOSS-inspired projects in general,
> > > > > > > 4. do something not yet considered.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ultimately, the whole thing is fairly rhetorical, as there
> > > > > > > really
> > > > > > > isn't a "we". As Director Emeritus For Life, I and I alone,
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > make the final call. But I */do/* want your thoughts and
> > > > > > > opinions to be heard and considered. My expectations are
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > the direction and fate of the NCOLUG is to be resolved by the
> > > > > > > end
> > > > > > > of September.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Please advise.
> > > > > > > Chuck
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To unsubscribe send to ncolug-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with
> > > > > 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field.
> > > > >
To unsubscribe send to ncolug-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the
Subject field.
Other related posts:
