[muglo] Re: eMac Keyboard Problem [OT] Nothing to do with Macs anymore

Eric:

Thanks for the hoot ... poor Mungo wondered what I had stumbled upon ...

You tried to tell then that you used more German than French ...

I actually agree with you ...

I have to remind myself how to put in accents etc but I do it with the=20=

keyboard I know ...


On Monday, September 29, 2003, at 02:18  PM, Eric D wrote:

> Hi ya,
>
> I love it when people jump to the conclusion I'm an English language=20=

> bigot
> ;) (especially so when my "mother" tongue is Swahili, my "mother's"=20
> tongue
> is Dutch and I learned English last in the list and have the least=20
> respect
> for the behaviour of the Anglo/francophone/Canadian
> patriot/nationalist/jingoist & language bigot ;).

it was at this point that I absolutely hooted !!!!!  Believe it or not=20=

just the other day I made a comment to Rob about your speaking Swahilli=20=

and he sorta said oh!!!


>
> I have little use for French *myself* since I have more contact with=20=

> Germans
> or Dutch people but I'm quite happy with official bilingualism as=20
> envisioned
> by PET. Its implementation is too rigid at times, ESPECIALLY given =
that
> OUTSIDE of Quebec Chinese, Italian and German are important languages=20=

> equal
> in stature to French. In BC French is a minority language (what is it=20=

> 58K?).
> The value of official bilingualism in such a situation is dubious (I=20=

> don't
> know how BC has solved that problem). Times change and gov't and=20
> private
> services need to change to meet people's needs. In the past Canada was
> white, predominately Anglo outside of Quebec and Franco inside. Things=20=

> are
> different now and society changes! Ontario used to be white, white,=20
> white
> and voted Tory. That's changed as immigration has changed the face of
> Ontario politics towards a moderate stance from an extremist one=20
> (well, the
> recent incarnation of the Tories were extremist.... The Tories of the=20=

> Davis
> era were principled and socially conscious at times unlike the=20
> Americans in
> disguise that are being turfed on Thursday (go Greens)).
>
> PS you may be interested to learn that the average age of non-Quebec
> francophones is *much* higher than the average population (b/c their
> children aren't learning French) so, in the near future (certainly in=20=

> all
> our lifetimes) French will fall in importance outside of Quebec. I'm=20=

> not
> saying this is either a good or bad thing. I'm just saying that this=20=

> is what
> is happening.
>
>> Last I looked, the "Francophone" population of Canada was closer to=20=

>> 30% and
>> they are not located only in Quebec. But that's not really the issue,=20=

>> is
>> it?
>
> Francophones are down at 22% of the overall pop, something like 80% of=20=

> PQ
> and only ahead of Chinese by a few % points outside Quebec (I wouldn't=20=

> be
> surprised to see those #s (outside of Quebec) reverse in my lifetime).
>
> The issue was the use of a pointless keyboard. 78% of Canadians are =
not
> francophone. The vast majority of non-francophones have much more
> communication with Americans or Europeans than with Quebecers. The=20
> portion
> of anglo gov't officials that need the ability to communicate with
> francophones in French is vanishingly small, and the proportion of =
that
> group that will in turn *use* the CSA keyboard will be even smaller.=20=

> So, for
> a tiny portion of the Canadian population we have to have a=20
> non-functional
> keyboard layout as the default? Do you use CSA? (if so, i'll be=20
> shocked b/c
> I can't say I've used a keyboard on Mac OR Windows in years (EVER!)=20
> where
> the person volutarily used CSA... usually they thought their software=20=

> was
> "broken" and just suffered with it).
>
> I decided to look at the CSA keyboard layout since the first thing I =
do
> whenever I set up a computer is delete it. I'll be blunt and uncouth:=20=

> it's
> *worthless*.
>
> No *sane* keyboarding teacher in school will teach someone how to type=20=

> on a
> CSA keyboard. No more ' []\{}. These get relegated to some option key=20=

> and
> these are used FAR more by non-French speakers than =E9, =E1, etc!!!
>
> A *far more* logical solution is the option-key modifier THAT ALREADY=20=

> IS
> USED. option-e gives you an accent-egu, option-` (& if you have a CSA
> keyboard you probably don't have that key ;) gives the grave, option-y=20=

> gives
> an umlaut and option-i gives a cirumflex. The CSA method devotes=20
> valuable
> keys to letters NEVER used by the VAST majority of people.
>
>> In Ontario, for example, ALL Provincial laws and courts (Municipal=20
>> too, but
>> it's not enforced) must be in both Official languages. That's not=20
>> Apple's
>> fault.
>
> No, it's not, but it is Apple's fault they set CSA as the default when
> English speaking Canadians DO NOT USE IT.
>
>> How do you suggest Gov't and Court workers in Ontario or any other
>> province/territory enter/revise French data without a keyboard=20
>> capable of
>> producing French characters?
>
> Use the keyboard that makes the most sense to people and that people=20=

> learn
> -- the *standard* (US) keyboard. If you teach kids CSA you're=20
> hampering=20
> their skill outside of Canada, and, for that matter, INSIDE Canada. =
You
> think people in BC communicate in French?
>
>> attitude as to call it "stupid" for a company to service it's=20
>> customers as
>> best it can.
>
> By no stretch of the imagination is it providing a service to its=20
> customers
> here. CSA is not taught in schools (rightly so -- it's non-functional)=20=

> and
> is not USED by people. Look at how much of a recurring issue this is =
on
> Canadian lists -- WE DON'T USE IT!
>
>> Is this really such an issue for you or as I infer from your
>> rant, are you simply one of the "English Bigots" that prefer an=20
>> American
>> standard to a Canadian one?
>
> Canadian standards are not always better! I'm all for distinguishing
> ourselves from the US (and from Europe... they're not always that
> sensible... straight bananas anyone?), especially if it can aggrevate=20=

> the
> CRAP party of Alberta (well, they are Americans in disguise... just=20
> like the
> Tories here in Ontario), BUT, if it places us at a disadvantage or=20
> unduly
> inconveniences us, I'm dead set against it. This is one case where we=20=

> (that
> VAST majority) do *not* benefit from having CSA (since the vast=20
> majority of
> non-francophones have little need for communication in French *and*=20
> there is
> already a BETTER solution in the conventional (US) keyboard layout=20
> with the
> option key).
>
>> If so, you'll be very happy to hear that Apple
>> USA is working a Latino version of CSA that would replace the US=20
>> Standard
>> you're using now. It'll will work the same, but at least it won't be=20=

>> in
>> French.
>
> ... your comment does not make one iota of sense. Are you saying=20
> they're
> making a Latino CSA (why? <sarcasm laced voice>... a Chinese CSA makes=20=

> more
> sense since Spanish is 6th or 7th in Canada whereas Chinese is 3rd in
> importance (Mandarin + Cantonese use similar (same?) keyboard=20
> layouts)) or a
> Latino US (makes sense since there are a sizeable number of latinos),=20=

> but
> *why* would it replace the US standard when, in the US, like in=20
> Canada, the
> vast majority of people speak and communicate in English? You can't=20
> have a
> Latino/French/non-English keyboard *and* retain its functionality for
> English speakers. That's the reality of language. Each language has=20
> its own
> needs and few lend themselves to hybridisation (English and French=20
> certainly
> don't). The CSA may work for francophones or anglophones who need to
> communicate in French, BUT it does not work for anglos who don't need=20=

> French
> (the VAST majority) or a third language. It only hampers them.
>
> I don't give a damn whether or not it's in French. What I care about=20=

> is that
> I can *use* my keyboard efficiently, and likewise the vast *majority*=20=

> of
> non-French Canadians will care about the same if they don't need daily
> communications in French (&, even if they do, the option key is a=20
> better
> solution since it allows you *full* use of a full 101 keys whilst=20
> giving you
> access to the non-English letters)!!!
>
> There is one observation I've made over the years regarding some of=20
> the more
> vehement defenders of *official* bilingualism and that is they are
> (SOMETIMES I must add) extreme language bigots. If you don't speak=20
> English
> and French you're not bilingual. This is an attitude that has to=20
> change if
> Official Bilingualism (TM) [French+English] is to survive outside of=20=

> Quebec
> and Ontario. I defend official bilingualism but I REJECT the credo =
that
> French has to be that second language and will argue till I'm blue in=20=

> the
> face with someone who rejects all other forms of bilingualism. In BC =
it
> would be pointless to provide provincial gov't services in French, if
> anything, BC should be officially bilingual Chinese-English (are=20
> they?).
>
> In time, I have a feeling that Official Bilingualism (TM) will (and=20
> should)
> be replaced by Official Multilingualism (TM) (PET was a little short=20=

> sighted
> since his focus was English-French... though, I guess at that point =
the
> linguistic landscape of Canada had only just begun to change) but=20
> until that
> time (I expect BC will the first, if they aren't already there)=20
> allophones
> will be excluded by OB (TM) proponents (to their peril -- exclusion of=20=

> a
> sizeable minority or even relative majority can result in backlash=20
> against
> the former oppressors).
>
>> Microsoft, offers a command set of "alt+numerics" to generate =
accented
>> characters. Not quite as user friendly, but they love it out in=20
>> Alberta.
>
> <shudder> Microsoft's solution to non-ASCII characters boggles the=20
> mind.
>
>> As for other languages, that you might find more useful in various
>> locations
>> across Canada, I again, remind you that we are talking about=20
>> "Official"
>> languages here. Again, last time I looked there are NO jurisdictions
>> anywhere in Canada requiring laws be written in anything other than=20=

>> English
>> or French, except in the Far North where it is OPTIONAL to add Native
>> languages up there. (also under review to eliminate the "option" and=20=

>> make
>> it
>> mandatory.
>
> That doesn't make CSA any more useful -- it's still a pointless layout=20=

> for
> the VAST majority of people (especially scientists and programmers and=20=

> HTML
> coders who require []'\/<>" etc).
>
> Anywho, this is enough procrastination.
>
> take care & have fun hunting for the right keys on your CSA keyboard &
> watching people swear when they try to use CSA.
>
> Eric.


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