[muglo] Re: eMac Keyboard Problem [OT] Nothing to do with Macs anymore
- From: "Eric D" <hideme666@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 14:18:52 -0400
Hi ya,
I love it when people jump to the conclusion I'm an English language bigot
;) (especially so when my "mother" tongue is Swahili, my "mother's" tongue
is Dutch and I learned English last in the list and have the least respect
for the behaviour of the Anglo/francophone/Canadian
patriot/nationalist/jingoist & language bigot ;).
I have little use for French *myself* since I have more contact with Germans
or Dutch people but I'm quite happy with official bilingualism as envisioned
by PET. Its implementation is too rigid at times, ESPECIALLY given that
OUTSIDE of Quebec Chinese, Italian and German are important languages equal
in stature to French. In BC French is a minority language (what is it 58K?).
The value of official bilingualism in such a situation is dubious (I don't
know how BC has solved that problem). Times change and gov't and private
services need to change to meet people's needs. In the past Canada was
white, predominately Anglo outside of Quebec and Franco inside. Things are
different now and society changes! Ontario used to be white, white, white
and voted Tory. That's changed as immigration has changed the face of
Ontario politics towards a moderate stance from an extremist one (well, the
recent incarnation of the Tories were extremist.... The Tories of the Davis
era were principled and socially conscious at times unlike the Americans in
disguise that are being turfed on Thursday (go Greens)).
PS you may be interested to learn that the average age of non-Quebec
francophones is *much* higher than the average population (b/c their
children aren't learning French) so, in the near future (certainly in all
our lifetimes) French will fall in importance outside of Quebec. I'm not
saying this is either a good or bad thing. I'm just saying that this is what
is happening.
>Last I looked, the "Francophone" population of Canada was closer to 30% and
>they are not located only in Quebec. But that's not really the issue, is
>it?
Francophones are down at 22% of the overall pop, something like 80% of PQ
and only ahead of Chinese by a few % points outside Quebec (I wouldn't be
surprised to see those #s (outside of Quebec) reverse in my lifetime).
The issue was the use of a pointless keyboard. 78% of Canadians are not
francophone. The vast majority of non-francophones have much more
communication with Americans or Europeans than with Quebecers. The portion
of anglo gov't officials that need the ability to communicate with
francophones in French is vanishingly small, and the proportion of that
group that will in turn *use* the CSA keyboard will be even smaller. So, for
a tiny portion of the Canadian population we have to have a non-functional
keyboard layout as the default? Do you use CSA? (if so, i'll be shocked b/c
I can't say I've used a keyboard on Mac OR Windows in years (EVER!) where
the person volutarily used CSA... usually they thought their software was
"broken" and just suffered with it).
I decided to look at the CSA keyboard layout since the first thing I do
whenever I set up a computer is delete it. I'll be blunt and uncouth: it's
*worthless*.
No *sane* keyboarding teacher in school will teach someone how to type on a
CSA keyboard. No more ' []\{}. These get relegated to some option key and
these are used FAR more by non-French speakers than é, á, etc!!!
A *far more* logical solution is the option-key modifier THAT ALREADY IS
USED. option-e gives you an accent-egu, option-` (& if you have a CSA
keyboard you probably don't have that key ;) gives the grave, option-y gives
an umlaut and option-i gives a cirumflex. The CSA method devotes valuable
keys to letters NEVER used by the VAST majority of people.
>In Ontario, for example, ALL Provincial laws and courts (Municipal too, but
>it's not enforced) must be in both Official languages. That's not Apple's
>fault.
No, it's not, but it is Apple's fault they set CSA as the default when
English speaking Canadians DO NOT USE IT.
>How do you suggest Gov't and Court workers in Ontario or any other
>province/territory enter/revise French data without a keyboard capable of
>producing French characters?
Use the keyboard that makes the most sense to people and that people learn
-- the *standard* (US) keyboard. If you teach kids CSA you're hampering
their skill outside of Canada, and, for that matter, INSIDE Canada. You
think people in BC communicate in French?
>attitude as to call it "stupid" for a company to service it's customers as
>best it can.
By no stretch of the imagination is it providing a service to its customers
here. CSA is not taught in schools (rightly so -- it's non-functional) and
is not USED by people. Look at how much of a recurring issue this is on
Canadian lists -- WE DON'T USE IT!
>Is this really such an issue for you or as I infer from your
>rant, are you simply one of the "English Bigots" that prefer an American
>standard to a Canadian one?
Canadian standards are not always better! I'm all for distinguishing
ourselves from the US (and from Europe... they're not always that
sensible... straight bananas anyone?), especially if it can aggrevate the
CRAP party of Alberta (well, they are Americans in disguise... just like the
Tories here in Ontario), BUT, if it places us at a disadvantage or unduly
inconveniences us, I'm dead set against it. This is one case where we (that
VAST majority) do *not* benefit from having CSA (since the vast majority of
non-francophones have little need for communication in French *and* there is
already a BETTER solution in the conventional (US) keyboard layout with the
option key).
>If so, you'll be very happy to hear that Apple
>USA is working a Latino version of CSA that would replace the US Standard
>you're using now. It'll will work the same, but at least it won't be in
>French.
... your comment does not make one iota of sense. Are you saying they're
making a Latino CSA (why? <sarcasm laced voice>... a Chinese CSA makes more
sense since Spanish is 6th or 7th in Canada whereas Chinese is 3rd in
importance (Mandarin + Cantonese use similar (same?) keyboard layouts)) or a
Latino US (makes sense since there are a sizeable number of latinos), but
*why* would it replace the US standard when, in the US, like in Canada, the
vast majority of people speak and communicate in English? You can't have a
Latino/French/non-English keyboard *and* retain its functionality for
English speakers. That's the reality of language. Each language has its own
needs and few lend themselves to hybridisation (English and French certainly
don't). The CSA may work for francophones or anglophones who need to
communicate in French, BUT it does not work for anglos who don't need French
(the VAST majority) or a third language. It only hampers them.
I don't give a damn whether or not it's in French. What I care about is that
I can *use* my keyboard efficiently, and likewise the vast *majority* of
non-French Canadians will care about the same if they don't need daily
communications in French (&, even if they do, the option key is a better
solution since it allows you *full* use of a full 101 keys whilst giving you
access to the non-English letters)!!!
There is one observation I've made over the years regarding some of the more
vehement defenders of *official* bilingualism and that is they are
(SOMETIMES I must add) extreme language bigots. If you don't speak English
and French you're not bilingual. This is an attitude that has to change if
Official Bilingualism (TM) [French+English] is to survive outside of Quebec
and Ontario. I defend official bilingualism but I REJECT the credo that
French has to be that second language and will argue till I'm blue in the
face with someone who rejects all other forms of bilingualism. In BC it
would be pointless to provide provincial gov't services in French, if
anything, BC should be officially bilingual Chinese-English (are they?).
In time, I have a feeling that Official Bilingualism (TM) will (and should)
be replaced by Official Multilingualism (TM) (PET was a little short sighted
since his focus was English-French... though, I guess at that point the
linguistic landscape of Canada had only just begun to change) but until that
time (I expect BC will the first, if they aren't already there) allophones
will be excluded by OB (TM) proponents (to their peril -- exclusion of a
sizeable minority or even relative majority can result in backlash against
the former oppressors).
>Microsoft, offers a command set of "alt+numerics" to generate accented
>characters. Not quite as user friendly, but they love it out in Alberta.
<shudder> Microsoft's solution to non-ASCII characters boggles the mind.
>As for other languages, that you might find more useful in various
>locations
>across Canada, I again, remind you that we are talking about "Official"
>languages here. Again, last time I looked there are NO jurisdictions
>anywhere in Canada requiring laws be written in anything other than English
>or French, except in the Far North where it is OPTIONAL to add Native
>languages up there. (also under review to eliminate the "option" and make
>it
>mandatory.
That doesn't make CSA any more useful -- it's still a pointless layout for
the VAST majority of people (especially scientists and programmers and HTML
coders who require []'\/<>" etc).
Anywho, this is enough procrastination.
take care & have fun hunting for the right keys on your CSA keyboard &
watching people swear when they try to use CSA.
Eric.
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