[muglo] Re: eMac Keyboard Problem [OT]

Hi Euro, it seems you deny the crux of the problem which is foisting the 
needs of a *tiny* minority onto that of the majority. This isn't an issue of 
rights. This is an issue of practicality (imagine how many 10s of 1000s 
(perhaps even 100s of 1000s or even 10E6s (doubtful)) $s that have been 
wasted when support staff have to "fix" an inappropriate keyboard setting in 
a business setting.

The VAST majority of ALL "English"-using Canadian Mac users have NO need for 
the CSA keyboard, even ONCE in their lifetime. Despite this (guesstimated) 
fact the DEFAULT setting for Canadian-English Mac users (when they select) 
is CSA. A standard which is only relevant to a TINY proportion of 
Canada-ENGLISH Mac users.

>Just to set the record straight, there are some 600,000 (now here's a REAL
>rant topic) Public Service workers in Canada who require the use of French
>characters for their work. That, given the total user base of Apple in
>Canada, is not a small or trivial group.

Ahem. You are playing fast and loose with the numbers and ignoring fact. 
Granted there are 600,000 PS workers (<2% of population FYI), HOWEVER, only 
a *small* portion of the English-speaking (thus using Canada-ENGLISH) group 
needs to communicate in French and even FEWER again will actually use the 
CSA keyboard layout.

Lets look at demographics and see where that leaves us: 22% of Canada 
francophone. The VAST majority of the francophones live in PQ (80% of 6.7 
million = 5.3 million) leaving 1.5 million outside of PQ. In PQ the 
majority'll likely use Canada-French which is inconsequential to the 
defaults in the Canada-English setting (and vice versa) thus I discard the 
bulk of the 80% (some of whom may even prefer the option-key solution (i.e. 
not CSA) to dedicated keys since they then have access to []')?^ in the same 
positions as the bulk of the North American world).

This leaves 1.5 million/24.3 million or ~6% of the non-PQ population that 
has linguistic (and perhaps keyboard) need for French (not counting 
bilingual anglophones outside of PQ who are most likely to use English with 
CSA if necessary). A sizeable portion of the francophones will use 
Canada-French. Thus, fewer than 6% of non-PQ francophones pop need 
Canada-English with French keys (CSA). This leaves 94% who are not likely to 
be using Canada-French as their system setting. Assuming that 3/4 (probably 
higher but I'm going to be conservative... allowing for people who use 
Russian, Chinese, etc.) use the "normal" (it's not really US since it's the 
keyboard layout that English Canada used since time immemorial... my father 
has a type writer that's now nearly 50 years old and the keys are in nearly 
the same position as the modern QWERTY kybd) keyboard layout. Thus, 75% of 
22.8 million leaves us with 17.1 million or 55% of the WHOLE country or 75% 
of non-francophones who have *absolutely* no use for CSA.

Now back to your 600 000 PS and 7 000 000 sold. Of that 600 000 the same 
ratios (need for French communication will likely be slightly higher) will 
likely hold (I don't think PQ has a hugely disproportionate # of PS). 17% of 
600 000 will likely set Canada-FRENCH reducing the total down to 500 000. Of 
that 500 000 likely a higher portion than the country as a whole, so I'll be 
generous and say 25%, will actually communicate in French by computer (and 
I'm going to assume they all use CSA and not the option-key solution). Thus, 
we're down to 375 000 people who don't need French. This is still more than 
half of everyone and MUCH more than half of the people using Canada-ENGLISH.

Outside of the PS the need for French is *less* since most co.s are 
unilingual English or French. Thus, the numbers are even more skewed for the 
7 000 000 Macs sold (PS in the olden days Mac didn't have this funny CSA 
thing).

Despite these numbers the DEFAULT for people who set Canada-ENGLISH as their 
preference is still CSA.

I'm not arguing against the use of French. I'm arguing against a DEFAULT 
which causes people no end of confusion. Standard practice is to do that 
which inconveniences the fewest people, unless there is a compelling reason 
to do otherwise (like protecting human rights -- this is *not* a rights 
issue). Since so few people who select the Canada-ENGLISH preference have 
need for CSA it is a burden on businesses and individuals. Individuals (like 
you) who occasionally need CSA can swap -- you are in the minority, AND, not 
only that, but you, in own words admit that the bulk of the time you use the 
normal QWERTY layout.

>Assessing Canadian needs based on a tiny sample of users in SW Ontario is
>not a very wise choice.

We are the largest single administrative region in Canada with over 1/3 of 
Canada's population and we have more francophones than BC, the third largest 
jurisdiction.

>For example I use the CSA keyboard at least weekly,
>so your assessment that "no one here voluntarily uses it" is already wrong.

Those words were too strong. I have a strange feeling that if I rephrased 
assumption that the OVERWHELMING majority (ALL?) here infrequently to NEVER 
use CSA.

>Suggesting that those requiring the CSA constitutes a "tiny group", when 
>the
>total membership of MUGLO is itself somewhat tiny at some 49 people, is
>statistically invalid.

That's how one does sample statistics ;) One extrapolates from samples to 
make inferences about populations (otherwise it would be a population 
statistic ;).

>As example, even if I am the only member of this
>group to use CSA, using your standards for measurement, then 2% of all
>Canadian Apple users require CSA, and since Apple claims to have sold over
>7-Million computers in Canada over the years, that would make 14,000 Apple
>users who need CSA

But, you do not have CSA as your default thus you support my contention that 
it is the *wrong* default for Canada-English! I have at times used DVORAK (I 
was up to 30 words/min on it... by far not as fast as QWERTY but not too 
shabby). Does this mean there's an argument to be made for making DVORAK the 
default?

>And despite your "slights" no matter how irrelevant French is for you, it 
>is
>an OFFICAL Language in Canada, the others are you mention not.

It's an official language but the absolute majority of the country doesn't 
even speak it and the *overwhelming* majority of non-francophones don't 
speak it. Why in the hell should they have to use a CSA keyboard as their 
default?

>As for the other stuff, yes, it was over the top, but I do not like it when
>someone speaks for me...

My apologies. I hope you like the more qualified statements I have 
presented.

>I still do not feel alienated by Apple for their
>creation of the CSA keyboard. It's my view that they've handled the problem
>quite well. I do not find it difficult or onerous to switch back and forth
>when I need the French character set. You original message claimed that
>Apple had Alienated its customers as opposed to just you.

It's still poor software design, especially since Apple designs its 
computers to cause the fewest problems. When the CSA keyboard benefits only 
a *tiny* minority of the potential market for Canada-English users when used 
at the default setting it comes down to *stupid* and poor software design.

Yes, CSA is perhaps a good solution for people who require French letters (I 
can't judge -- I can only judge that it is an IRRELEVANT keyboard to people 
who don't require French).

Perhaps you don't get the problem? I'm not advocating that Apple delete CSA! 
I'm just saying that they link it only to Canada-French, or, if 
Francais-canadien doesn't use it (does it?) leave it in the settings list as 
a keyboard layout without a language owner for the _TINY_ _MINORITY_ of 
users who actually need it.

Anyway, I find it a little sad that Apple does this. It harms the Apple 
experience out of the box (especially b/c Apple doesn't have all those 
settings in one place) and runs the risk of making non-Mac users think that 
Macs don't work well (I've encountered that thought... people think their 
Mac is broken because the keys don't work "properly" (they work properly, 
just not for English speaking people)).

>And no, I did not mean or even suggest that Apple was working on a 
>different
>"Canadian" version of CSA, but rather a new US version that would work
>exactly the same as the CSA but in Spanish as 3 of the most populous 
>States,
>Texas, California and Florida are considering making Spanish an Official
>language. It means you'll have to be careful when selecting the US keyboard
>or you'll get the same stuff you hate with CSA, except it won't be in
>French.

It'll be just as irrelevant as CSA since it'll be labelled US - latino (or 
something like that) though I see the jab you're trying to get in there. 
Maybe if they're willing to make a US-latino setting they'll get around to 
fixing the Canada-English setting (& also adding metric to it).

Eric.

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