[muglo] Re: Language Issues (was Re: RANT on Canadian imperial settings &politics (was Re: OS Autoconnect)

>From: Martin Albinger <max@xxxxxx>
>Reply-To: muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>To: muglo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [muglo] Re: Language Issues (was Re: RANT on Canadian imperial 
>settings & politics (was Re:

> > (just like French/English is a cost incurred (in the end) by consumers 
>while
> > in a city like Toronto, Chinese/English or Italian/English or
> > Chinese/Italian/English (get the three dominant language groups in 
>Ontario
> > ;) would be a lot more logical and cost effective).
>
>Begin rant:
>
>Well, (looking ahead to another message regarding Windsor and
>coming back to this one) you obviously have not travelled much
>past the Tri-Town area (no not Cambridge aka Galt/Preston/Hespler
>the other one north of North Bay I'll let you figurte out which 3
>they are!).

Not entirely sure... I've only been Toronto for three years now so I'm 
guessing you're alluding to some of those hideous Toronto suburbs 
(Mississauga is about as hideous as Windsor IMNSHO).

The second most spoken language in that area of
>Ontario is English (yes that is 2nd not 1st). The other is the
>one most of us seem to like to dislike for some reason and that
>is French. (shoved down our throats is often used as a way of
>explaining it). Ontario for those of us in its southern parts
>does not end in Muskoka. More than 3/4 of the province lies north
>of there - a whole different world and culture of a much longer
>standing than the more recent arrivals in the navel of Ontario.
>Should the majority of the navel govern the policies of the whole?

So, am I to take it from this that a *tiny* minority (I'd be surprised if 
you could find even 5% of the province's population north of the Muskokas) 
gets to determine linguistic policy in Toronto?

>I believe your logic is flawed and thus your conclusions!!

I'd argue your logic is flawed, but, i guess that's the nature of a rant, is 
it not (I should know, I've written enough of them).

The only reason I was pointing out the issue with language on lables is that 
in *Toronto* and in the provinces to the west of Quebec (and most of Ontario 
for that matter), bilingual French-English lables are a fiscal burden on the 
population as a whole, unjustified by the relative importance of the 
languages spoken in the provinces.

I have no beef with official bilingualism (French being the other language 
-- English is so obviously the dominant language outside of Quebec that they 
are different issues). Sometimes I think official bilingualism is turned 
into an obsession (as, perhaps you demonstrated?), and, unfortunately, you 
also get the English-only crowd getting their laces tied in knots (or 
whatever the saying is).

I am neither English-only (a group I despise from the bottom of my heart) 
nor am I ultra-pro-French. I perfer a rational and tempered approach which 
is determined by regional needs. In Toronto, there is a *greater* need for 
Chinese and Italian services than for French (I hate to say it,... no, I 
don't hate to say it, "it's true"). Why spend $$$ on an official policy for 
French while leaving two other large linguistic groups in the lurch? (& with 
this, I include laws which require food retailers to provide English and 
French (& make it difficult to add a third language)). You wouldn't believe 
how often I would love to strangle the !@#$!@# throat who forces 
French/English lables on imports. I happily read German or Dutch 
instructions on stuff but oftentimes a stupid (unpeelable) sticker is 
plastered on top of the real instructions, with some one-liners about what 
to do with stuff.

Anyway, this is the end of my rant.

Hmm. I guess I'd already written the stuff below... may as well leave it in 
FYI.

I've travelled, just not much to the US (I've always been scared to set foot 
in that country). And I'm tri-lingual as an FYI (just not French) and have 
had to defend official belingualism against English-only bigots before.

I have nothing against the French language or official bilingualism (I am 
planning to improve my French in the near future) but I find enforced 
exclusion of languages repugnant (like in Quebec, and the effective outcome 
of official bilingualism in CMAs in Ontario where a language other than 
French is the second language (most larger cities... other than North Bay 
and Sudbury (who aren't large at all) are there any other Ontario cities 
that have French as the second-most common primary language?).

In Toronto, French is a small minority language compared to Mandarin and 
Cantonese Chinese and Italian and it make muchs sense to put scarce economic 
resources into the *real* 2ndary languages. There are a lot of stores where 
you'd be hard pressed to find someone speaking French (or English for that 
matter ;) but Chinese or Italian is quite common.

"logic is flawed and thus your conclusions!!" I didn't think I was 
presenting an argument but your logic is flawed (too?). The Ontario 
population *does* end at the Muskokas. Above the Muskokas you will be 
hard-pressed to find 1/20th of Ontario's population. As someone who wasn't 
born and raised here, the logic of providing services to a small minority 
(French) but ignoring a larger minority (Chinese, Italian) escapes me. I 
understand the philosophy of official bilingualism and I think Trudeau was 
quite visionary for pushing it. However, as with the ideological idiocy that 
has lef Ontario an environmental and social wreck after 8 years, ideology 
must be tempered by reason.

PS Do you remember the idiocy that pervaded parts of northern Ontario about 
12 years ago when some cities (North Bay?) were trying to declare themselves 
English-only.

Eric.

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