[muglo] Re: 100% OT (was 90% OT (was: Re: What's withMacOutpost?)

Eric D,

> Very interesting that *examples* are dismissed yet none are provided.

They were your examples I was referring to.
 
>> Bullshit.  Walkerton was a fine example of poor decisions.  The people that
>> were hired, were lazy, uneducated and simply not right for the job.  They
>> made decisions that cost people their lives.  Is that not a failure?  Go to
>> Walkerton and ask the people.
> 
> You also fail to remember that it was the ideology of the Harrassment Tories
> privatisation scheme that contributed the failure in the entire system.

Yes!  Government!  Hehe.  Anyway, that guy that was hired that was on the
stand, was a joke.  Due diligence was not even close in that situation.
 
>>> Mad cow disease, BSE, is yet *another* example of a failure of the
>> PRIVATE
>>> industry.
>> 
>> OK, here we go.  Tell me how that was?  Your ideologies are coming through
>> full tilt now.
> 
> Merely pointing out that your beloved "private can ALWAYS do it better
> mantra" is *NOT* true.

It's a weak example, because of the hidden cause of BSE.  It showed up in
Alberta, almost in the middle of Canada.  That was anybody's issue.  The
science won over everybody's need to keep it out, then it made it all the
way into Alberta.  Too strange or unknown to really address whose issue that
belongs to.  
 
>> Well let's talk about the Cod industry in Eastern Canada.  Nice to just
>> close down an industry like that on thousands of people.  That isn't a
>> fiasco?  Why did this happen?  The government decided to call it a domestic
>> issue and didn't listen.  Because they didn't know what to do.  See how it
>> turned out?  They couldn't manage it in the past, so they hit them with one
>> hard blow.  Well done.
> 
> The Cod industry in Eastern Canada stayed open because no one had the balls
> (since they were in cahoots with industry or didn't have the balls to stand
> up to people who would be thrown out of their jobs for conservation
> measures... so instead, like in Ontario now, now they have NO jobs) to stand
> up to the COMPANIES that were over-fishing.

Exactly.  If it was a private system, their need to address it would be
coupled to their ability to survive.   Therefore, something would have been
done earlier.  It was totally unmanaged.  The companies only played their
maximum, which are the guidelines of the government's Ministry of Fisheries.
I bet if you asked any owner/fisherman out East, they'd answer 'well we fish
as much as we're allowed to'.  Outside of that, they're stupid thinking
their industry was going to last.  They were just kidding themselves.  The
issue is that the government didn't manage that transition and it came on a
black Tuesday or something weird like that.  Totally inappropriate.
 
>> If government was effective at pushing policy, as opposed to taking
>> kickbacks ("Oh noooooo...nobody in government takes bribes"), then
>> environmental disasters might not have happened if there was proper
>> legislation in place.  Private functioning
> 
> If they're willing to take kick-backs it also means someone is willing to
> give them!

Willing because they know they will be taken and be effective at the same
time.  Again, not all business is guilty because of some organizations.  We
seem to keep going back to the same trough.
 
>> take bribes.  It's a shambles.  Why do you think the Canadian microbrewing
>> industry is one third that of the US?  Because of the crap the government
>> does to them.
> 
> We're also 1/10th the size of the US. 1/3 is quite impressive!!! Besides,
> alcohol is not exactly an glowing example of private and/or public
> benefit!!!

Relative sizes I meant.  We should be 3 times the size we are.  Per capita
we are 1/3 the rate the US has.  Alcohol earns an amazing amount of tax for
our provinces and on the federal level, and employs many many people and
provides a basis for entrepreneurialship.
 
>> Medical system, environment, communications, arts and culture...you name
>> it,
>> they all mess up in government.
> 
> Hmm. Canada's medical system is operated at nearly half the NET cost
> (private + public) of that of the US yet we have a longer life expectancy
> (colder climate even) and better quality of health.

Perhaps so.  Still isn't functioning the way it should.  I applaud the
difference, but I think it could be done better.
 
>> Eric, study some Eastern philosophies.  Then you won't go to extremes and
>> place black and white accusations like the word 'panacea'.  I have never
>> said that it was a panacea.  I'm just stating that private organizations
>> are
>> more effective at accomplishing their goals.  Governments around the world,
>> are the cause of war.  Private organizations, are not.  You try to lump all
>> private entities under one umbrella, because it's convenient.  It's just
>> not
>> that way.
> 
> Corps not responsible for war? Let's see, Enron, Exxon, Chaney are not
> responsible for the US gov't's war for oil policy?

Whoah, that's a whole other issue that is truly debatable.  I'd say that the
war isn't caused by those companies, but by Bush.  You know, Jeb's brother.
That guy is a fool.  This is the guy that said 'Nothing will stand in the
way of the US economy'.
 
> Secondly, YOU are putting words in MY mouth. I have REPEATEDLY stated that
> public can do _some_ things better than private, some things they do equally
> well, and, some things private can do better than public. It is YOU who are
> going to the extreme of claiming that public CANNOT do things well (please
> correct me if I am putting words in your mouth).

But your rebuttal is that of examples where companies mess up.  Again, I
still say that individuals under a private umbrella have a mandate to
perform, in the direction chosen by the company.  If that should be such
that it adopts the mandates of current public service, then I feel they
would be more effective using the same tools.  Governments are accepted as
being inefficient, bloated, uncaring, unmotivated groups of tax spenders.
I've heard the same sarcasm on the phone, even this day.  I laughed when I
thought about this thread.
 
> HISTORY (or HERSTORY) has shown that private does not always do things well,
> and when it does not do things well, PUBLIC steps in. The road you were on
> to get your laptop would not have been built if it had been up to private
> sector. But, once built by COMMUNAL (i.e. PUBLIC) moneys, it facilitated
> your trip, the economy that flourished because of its presence.

Oh please.  Take a look around.  There are many great companies out there
that do great things.  I dealt with one today.  Without the public sector in
place, private sector would have had it built.  It's good for business.
Widening of highways is based upon need for transport for business.  Don't
kid yerself.  You think organizations wouldn't invest part ownership into a
high speed rail link from Windsor to Quebec City?  You bet they would, given
the right incentives.  Italy is full of that stuff.
 
>> As for denial, nobody has any good things to say about government.  They
>> overtax and underserve, then demand more more more.  It's called a deficit,
>> something a company cannot operate without severe responsibilities.
> 
> No? YOU certainly don't. Why I'm not sure, but you benefitted from that
> gov't in your education, your upcoming PUBLICLY paid for surgery (unless
> it's cosmetic), the Ivy school of business, the roads you used, the people
> who were educated by the communal pooling of funds who bought your services,
> the undergrad education you received!!

Which education was that?  Certainly not Ivey.  Certainly not my private
schooling.  Certainly not in that pathetic undergrad I had.  Certainly not
in my postgrad in Scotland.  Hmmmm...seems I paid for my own education, and
would choose to do so again.  My surgery is not clear on its funding yet.
I'd pay for it myself and am considering going to the States to have it
done.  As well, I could argue that any expense in the medical system comes
from taxes, which it does.

My undergrad was a waste of time.  It was a stepping stone to postgrad and
real studies.  
 
> I'm quite impressed by what they've done in building a public education and
> health care system in 50-80 years at lower cost than our neighbours to the
> south!!!

I'm not.  It should be better.  Considering 40% of the students in the
States polled, couldn't point out the US on a map of the world.
 
> I'm utterly disgusted with what they've allowed to happen to environment,
> partly because people are stupid by and large, and also, partly because too
> many politicos are in the back pockets of corporations!

Both are guilty on that part.
 
> We're not over-taxed -- we have to hear too much whining about
> over-taxation. That's how our ears are over-taxed! Our corporate taxes are
> amongst the lowest in the G7. You're spouting some non-existant facts. We
> have a better country in which to live than in the US and for that
> priviledge we have to pay more. If you want to have crime on the streets and
> people suffering health effects needlessly, by all means, move to the US.

Honestly, for what we pay, we should be getting much more.  Income taxes are
high.  Again, it's relative to what we should be getting.  As for crime in
the streets, etc., move to Vancouver.
 
> PS The brain drain is not fact! It is CRAP-perpetuated mythology. Canada
> gets as much as it gives!!!

Then we should have a lot more smart Americans here, which we don't.


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