[modeleng] Re: Juliet's

Gent's,

It's just as TEL says. Over here in Oz, it is normally cheaper to buy (and 
have it posted) from the UK than it is to buy from local suppliers.
There are some exceptions, but generally it is the rule. For me, it is 
cheaper to buy all nuts and bolts from Searle Fasterners here in Perth.  You 
may want to give them a chance to quote TEL. They have every conceivable 
thread form and head shape, and at really good prices. Rivets, I buy from 
the UK. Well.... I used to.... I haven't needed any for a long time... But I 
know they are still cheaper to get from there.

I just priced some GM for the cylinders. I have pasted the prices below. At 
AU$250 for 4 cylinders, covers, eccentric straps, and valve chests, it is 
much cheaper than the castings. Reeves price for 1 cylinder set is 
AU$442.50. Certainly worth fabricating them. How do these prices compare to 
other places in the world?

LG2 57mm solid x 305mm Long (1ft) - $155.00/ft + G.S.T.

LG2 45mm OD x 19mm ID x 305mm Long (1ft) - $83.00/ft + G.S.T.



OK so in summary.....

Buy Drawings (drawings in original ME's too hard to read convieniently)
Fabricate GM cylinders (cyl section from hollow bar - valve section could
waste a bit of metal in swarf, but my mill will quickly remove that) at 
AU$125
Buy wheel castings. AU$85 per loco
Fabricate everything else (GM axleboxes sound like a good idea - dunno how
they would wear in the horn block area though.... Alan?)
Buy boiler barrel material from UK (3.5" dia is not a size available "of the
shelf" in Oz")

Anything else?????

Lagging of boiler? What is the normal practice in the little league? 1/8
cork is an excellent lagging material. I have used it on my 7.25" gauge loco
and had great results. I had to relag it (can't remember why) and used 3mm
ceramic fibre sheet and found it NOT as good as cork. Perhaps because I
SQUEEZED in 2 sheets..... ?  Anyway, I thought 1/8" of cork  between the
boiler and cladding would do it some good. I will need to roll a larger
smokebox (1/4" bigger in dia) but that's no big deal..


Cheers,

Phill.




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TEL" <tel47@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:57 AM
Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's


> More expensive is usually the case over here. It's cheaper for me to buy
> BA fasteners direct from (say) Macc's Models  or EPK in the UK.
> R.L. Roebuck wrote:
>> Hi there Phill,
>> It is worth noting that most model engineering suppliers have/had more
>> trade than they need. As such...
>>
>> If a model engineering supplier has paid to get parts cast say 6 months
>> ago, when raw materials prices were higher, they will likely not want to
>> make a loss, so will try to sell on at those prices, even though if they
>> got you some cast now, it would likely cost less.
>>
>> If E & J Winters turnoever and stock-levels are a bit more 'long-term'
>> than Blackgates this might explain why against all logic and reason,
>> you're 'local' supplier is costing more.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>>
>> Rich.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 20 May 2009, Phill Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>> G'Day John,
>>> I hadn't tried E & J Winter.
>>>
>>> I followed your link, and the drawings are listed at AU$95. They are 
>>> cheaper from GLR [ (UK$24 + UK$3) x 2.5 = AU$67.50 ]
>>>
>>> I'll fire him off an email shortly asking for prices and availability, 
>>> of cylinder and wheel castings.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Phill.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "John Buckley" <jfsbuckley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:41 PM
>>> Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Good Morning Phill,
>>>>
>>>> Have you tried E & J Winter in Aus. I am sure that they used to supply
>>>> Juliet castings and drawings.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ejwinter.com.au/catalogue/ejw-map-plans-8-08.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> (Tamworth NSW)
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: modeleng-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>>>> [mailto:modeleng-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Phill Smith
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, 20 May 2009 12:42 AM
>>>> To: modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's
>>>>
>>>> G'Day Rich,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your reply. It is really handy to know that there are others 
>>>> out
>>>> there who are willing to help.
>>>>
>>>> I was surprised by Pete's responce to my queries, which is why I 
>>>> included it
>>>>
>>>> in my last posting. It really looks like he doesn't know his products. 
>>>> I
>>>> hope I'm wrong there, not for him personnally, but for the hobby. If 
>>>> our
>>>> suppliers don't know thier product, then it shows, and people won't 
>>>> want to
>>>> use them. They then close up shop. It doesn't take long before there 
>>>> are no
>>>> suppliers left to supply us.....
>>>>
>>>> I have send an email of to Blackgates to see what thier prices are 
>>>> like. I
>>>> don't know HOW I missed the juliet when I looked before.....
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the original ME's drawings, there are very few dimensions 
>>>> given
>>>> for the cylinders. I assume, from when LBSC wrote on the text, that the
>>>> drawings given to the casting suppliers had enough detail to enable 
>>>> them to
>>>> make correct patterns for the cylinders. Unfortunately, those details 
>>>> are
>>>> not in the article drawings.
>>>>
>>>> Oh my...... I have just looked at the link to Walsall Model Industries, 
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>> Alan sent in one of his posts. 2 sets of cylinder castings for 35
>>>> pounds!!!!!! I'll send them an email VERY SHORTLY, to check on the size 
>>>> of
>>>> them, as they are listed on their Gauge 1 page. No wheels listed
>>>> though...... Prayers everyone!!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Phill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "R.L. Roebuck" <rlr20@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:03 PM
>>>> Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi there Phill,
>>>>> If you look on...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.blackgates.co.uk/body_3_5__gauge_locos.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Blackgates definitely do Juliet!
>>>>>
>>>>> The price for their postage to you in Oz may be slightly cheaper as if
>>>>> memory serves correctly their castings use the late Norman Spinks 
>>>>> pattern
>>>>> for the driving wheels, which is quite 'lean', ie less metal to post 
>>>>> to
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the down side though, less room for error (especially if you 
>>>>> teaching
>>>>> someone to machine). Also I've never had a bad thing to say about GLR 
>>>>> and
>>>>> Pete, so I wouldn't want to put you off from ordering from him.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Rich.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 19 May 2009, Phill Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> G'Day John, Jeff, TEL, And Everyone else,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fabricating cylinders is easy enough. The boring head makes accurate
>>>>>> fitting
>>>>>> together easy enough, but that applies to making patterns as 
>>>>>> well..... I
>>>>>> didn't really want to fabricate them, but that may be (as both Jeff 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> pointed out) the cheaper option.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blackgates doesn't list Juliet as something they do, so I didn't 
>>>>>> bother
>>>>>> contacting them.... Maybe I should have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is the 2 replies that I have had from GLR in the UK..... I am
>>>>>> simply
>>>>>> amazed by the responces. Knowing your product and showing some 
>>>>>> interest,
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> obviously a thing of the past.......
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil,
>>>>>>            post for dwgs £3.00      we supply wheel castings 4 @ 
>>>>>> £44.00
>>>>>> Cyliner castings @ £90.00   ring 01327 878988
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>                  Pete
>>>>>>  ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>  From: Phill Smith
>>>>>>  To: Peteglr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>  Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 1:20 PM
>>>>>>  Subject: Re: Juliet drawings and castings
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  G'Day Pete,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I'm after inside valve gear (Stephenson's valvegear). Version 2 has
>>>>>> Baker's valvegear.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Do you supply cylinder and wheel castings?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Phill.
>>>>>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>    From: Peteglr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>    To: Phill Smith
>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, May 18, 2009 6:58 PM
>>>>>>    Subject: Re: Juliet drawings and castings
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    Do you want inside cylinders or outside cylinders, drawings for 
>>>>>> either
>>>>>> are £24.00 + p & p
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pete GLR
>>>>>>      ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>      From: Phill Smith
>>>>>>      To: peteglr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>      Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:20 PM
>>>>>>      Subject: Juliet drawings and castings
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      To whom it May Concern,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      I am attempting to source drawings and castings for LBSC's 
>>>>>> Juliet
>>>>>> (version 1).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      If you are able to supply, could you please give me prices and
>>>>>> postage
>>>>>> costs to Australia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      If you can't supply, could you provide me with the contact 
>>>>>> details
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> suppliers who can.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Thanks in advance,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Phillip Smith.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The price for the wheels and cylinders are MUCH better than Reeves'
>>>>>> price.
>>>>>> But still..... 11 pounds for a wheel 3.5" in diameter???? That's 
>>>>>> about
>>>>>> AU$27.50 each. It's a much better price than Reeves!!! I think it 
>>>>>> may(?)
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> worth getting these....
>>>>>> I can machine them out of centrifugally cast CI, for less than that.
>>>>>> Spokes
>>>>>> and all. But, it's the time factor that I don't like...... I suppose 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> could just be solids like Tich's. The other thing is that they would 
>>>>>> need
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> be tired as the centrifugally cast stuff is softer than regular 
>>>>>> castings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No
>>>>>> big deal, just another thing to do that I doubt my son would be up to
>>>>>> yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know about the LPG furnass TEL. The only one I have had
>>>>>> experience
>>>>>> with (LPG that is) was in high school, and that used a lot of gas to 
>>>>>> melt
>>>>>>
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> piddly little bit of aluminium. It was probably just the design or 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> way
>>>>>> it was being used. Haven't you got a gas one up and running? How much 
>>>>>> gas
>>>>>> does it use to melt a given amount of bronze?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK so in summary.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Buy Drawings (drawings in original ME's too hard to read 
>>>>>> convieniently)
>>>>>> Fabricate GM cylinders (cyl section from hollow bar - valve section 
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> waste a bit of metal in swarf, but my mill will quickly remove that)
>>>>>> Buy wheel castings. 44 pounds stirling (AU$110) per loco
>>>>>> Fabricate everything else (GM axleboxes sound like a good idea - 
>>>>>> dunno
>>>>>> how
>>>>>> they would wear in the horn block area though.... Alan?)
>>>>>> Buy boiler barrel material from UK (3.5" dia is not a size available 
>>>>>> "of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> shelf" in Oz")
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anything else?????
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lagging of boiler? What is the normal practice in the little league? 
>>>>>> 1/8
>>>>>> cork is an excellent lagging material. I have used it on my 7.25" 
>>>>>> gauge
>>>>>> loco
>>>>>> and had great results. I had to relag it (can't remember why) and 
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> 3mm
>>>>>> ceramic fibre sheet and found it NOT as good as cork. Perhaps because 
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> SQUEEZED in 2 sheets..... ?  Anyway, I thought 1/8" of cork  between 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> boiler and cladding would do it some good. I will need to roll a 
>>>>>> larger
>>>>>> smokebox (1/4" bigger in dia) but that's no big deal..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, as an aside.... I noticed that there are dome castings offered by
>>>>>> Reeves. Doesn't anyone, besides me, spin domes anymore? I have spun a 
>>>>>> few
>>>>>> for my friends ranging from 1" dia x 1.5" to 6" dia x 9", in both 
>>>>>> brass
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> copper, and the size makes no difference to process. It just takes 
>>>>>> longer
>>>>>> for the bigger ones. Who else on this list spins items?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And another aside..... Clarkson autolock collet chucks.... For those 
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> who have never used one, these are the ultimate clamping system to 
>>>>>> hold
>>>>>> onto
>>>>>> your slot drills (2 or 3 flute centre cutting end mills) when doing
>>>>>> plunging
>>>>>> work. Every other clamping system can slip allowing the cutter to 
>>>>>> pull
>>>>>> out
>>>>>> or push in. If you get the chance to buy one, do so. They are well 
>>>>>> worth
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> investment. They pop up on ebay occationally, with the shank for 
>>>>>> either
>>>>>> MT3,
>>>>>> R8, NT30, or NT40. The only drawback is that you can only use 
>>>>>> threaded
>>>>>> shanked slot drills or end mills. Unfortunately none of the tungstan
>>>>>> carbide
>>>>>> cutters have threaded shanks.....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phill.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "John Baguley" <baggo@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:44 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wouldn't be too difficult to fabricate the cylinders from a bit 
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> cored bronze or gunmetal with a bronze or gunmetal port face silver
>>>>>>> soldered on or even machine them from the solid. All the rest could 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> brass. Valve chest built up from brass bar silver soldered together 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> end covers turned from brass bar with a bronze bush for the piston 
>>>>>>> rod.
>>>>>>> Much easier than making patterns and having castings made. A lot 
>>>>>>> cheaper
>>>>>>> too!
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TEL wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope, no Juliet, so I can't be of help.
>>>>>>>> Furnace - propane will provide plenty of heat for doing bronze - 
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> be a bit of a pinch for CI  although it has been done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I too had a look at Reeves' site the other day - and they reckon 
>>>>>>>> Ned
>>>>>>>> Kelly was a crook eh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phill Smith wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> G'Day Alan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The angle iron buffers is as LBSC originally designed it. They 
>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>> originally brazed onto the side sheets. I don't like that, so I'll
>>>>>>>>> bolt
>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>> with angle brackets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was lucky I was sitting down when I went to the AJ Reeves site 
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> looked
>>>>>>>>> at thier prices for cylinder sets.... 177 pounds for 1 cylinder
>>>>>>>>> set!!!!!
>>>>>>>>> Just ONE cylinder set. They have just lost my business...... What 
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> mob
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> thieves!!!!!!!!!!
>>>>>>>>> I hate patternmaking!!!! Oh well, looks like there is no choice 
>>>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>>> Unless
>>>>>>>>> I can find someone that has some patterns that they wouldn't mind
>>>>>>>>> lending
>>>>>>>>> me...... They would be rare these days.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> TEL, didn't you make a Juliet? Where did you get your castings 
>>>>>>>>> from?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Maybe I should concentrate on building a oil fired (I don't know 
>>>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>>>> LPG
>>>>>>>>> would be hot enough) furnass first....... There's no shortage of 
>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>> quality green sand around here......
>>>>>>>>> Anyone got any drawings for one? I had better get started, 
>>>>>>>>> otherwise
>>>>>>>>> disapointment awaits the delayed start on the project.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Phill.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>>> From: "Alan Stepney" <alan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> To: <modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 3:42 PM
>>>>>>>>> Subject: [modeleng] Re: Juliet's
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I used bronze axleboxes, so...
>>>>>>>>>> Angle iron for the buffer beams would save some work.
>>>>>>>>>> Drain cocks, OK.
>>>>>>>>>> I dont see the need for a horiz stretcher, but nothing to stop 
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> adding
>>>>>>>>>> one of you feel it worthwile.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As for time, I was assuming lots of hand work, but if you have, 
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> example,
>>>>>>>>>> a mill (which you mentioned) and are making jogs etc, then, eys, 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>> shorten it considerably.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>> http://www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/www.walsallmodelindustries.co.uk/inf
>>>> o.php?p&pno=0
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> are an alternative to Reeves et al, although I have never used 
>>>>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>>>>> myself.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> MODEL ENGINEERING DISCUSSION LIST.
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> subject
>>>>>>>>>> line.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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