[modeleng] Re: Engineering education - rant

Allen,
I do not know if you are correct about that, maybe for your part of the 
planet you are.
Over here, Flanders, we had a good system in place.
You made a choice around the age of 13-14 and you did your schooling in 
on of the 3 big ones; - the sparks, -the small sparks (electronics) or 
the meccano's.
The curriculum ,for the rest, (general: languages, maths, history....etc 
and so on) was the same for all. It was also the same for the 
non-technical students. They had a bit more of some of the subjects,and 
they  had less hours a week.
At the age of 18 you had your "A2" diploma, as we called it.
After that you could do anything you wanted; go to uni ,tech collage.., 
studying engineering,be a doctor or a historian... as the general 
knowledge and the maths and languages of the machinist was about at the 
same level, as that of someone coming out of a non-technical stream.
If you  went into the real world, you  started making money for  "the 
boss" after 6 months to a year...
If you had a modicum of wisdom, you stole with your ears and eyes, and 
made good money by the time you turned 20-21...
Every  meccano or spark that the schools turned out, knew his trade, had 
the dexterity
to do his job but had also the theory under his belt, including a fairly 
heavy maths program.
You could get a degree in the evening and at weekends (took 4 years,and 
was no laughing matter!) this was even more appreciated by the industry, 
as it showed stamina and resilience.
Doing this, while holding a full time job was a serious matter!
Nowadays, its all gone.There is no more "A2" level, only what can only 
be translated as "vocational schooling" (i know what it means in the UK 
and US, but I wouldn't know how to translate it by any other term.)
The maths in this, is all but gone; I believe they still have 2 periods 
a week (I had 8).
Almost no languages anymore and the history and geography are now called 
"social sience".
Even our own language is not given anymore the way it should.
The story about the "thingy that make the thread in the hole a bit 
bigger" is but one,.
I will not rant about the countless encounters with,what can only be 
discribed as "duh-people", that call themselves ;electricians, 
meccanics, or electronics engineers.
I have not met one, of the present generation, who has any insight in 
the maths that go with any of the engineering jobs; I gave up all hope 
some 15 years ago, when a candidate employee ,stated "what the h*ll is 
trigonometry?" .He was 19, and called himself a machinist,
and had a piece of paper saying that he was!
At that moment, all was lost.
Instead of stopping this madness, and going back in time,the politicians 
who are to blame for this disaster, go even further in their lunacy.
None of them has the courage to state: maybe we were mistaken, maybe we 
should go back to what worked.
No, every time they try to rectify their idiotic schemes, by bigger 
blunders.
The handfull of engineers, that didn't ran away screaming, are very 
carefull with the bleu colar workers of the previous generation. They 
too have been there at some point or another and they too know what it 
is to be on the shop floor.
It is only the current generation, that is looked upon with desdain, 
frowned upon for the waist of O2 they are (jobwise).
It is the end of an era, and it will be too little, too late when 
something is done.
It  has come so far, the the East Europeans, are now, slightly better at 
the engineering jobs, than the waist of space we turn out of our 
schools. This too, is inadequate... and this path will be left, but only 
when we are stuck with,yet another, bunch of people that aren't up to 
the job.
It is only then, when we are all long gone, and pushing daisies, that 
somebody will stand up and say: enough of this!!
But it will be way too late by then...
Patrick
Flanders, sad...





Allen Messer wrote:

>I hope that I am not mis-understood, Heaven knows that
>I do not want to offend anyone!  As I see it, about 50
>years ago, there was a "parting of the ways" among the
>two main disciplines in the field of engineering.  It
>seems to me that it split into the "Theoretical" and
>the "Practical" sides.  The Theoretical could design
>like crazy, but could not tap a threaded hole if their
>jobs depended on it and the Practical guys, well, they
>resented their attitudes.  In fact, I have observed
>some strong "feelings" between the two groups: the
>"Theorists" looking down their noses at the
>"Practical" guys 'cause they "got their hands dirty".
>
>Please do not mis-understand me as I strongly feel
>that we desperately need the assets of both groups.  I
>just hope that we can get them back together before it
>is too late.
>
>Al Messer
>--- sehwuk@xxxxxxx wrote:
>
>  
>
>>I read these forum pages avidly but rarely
>>contribute unless I have something whorthwhile to
>>say and Peter has hit a nerve where I am concerned.
>> 
>>35 years ago I did my apprentiship with Ford Motor
>>Company in Dagenham. Since then I've been 'dabbling'
>>in model engineering on and off as time and the
>>pocket would allow. I now find myself in a position
>>to afford not only larger machinery (for a 4"
>>Burrell) but a nice big workshop and some time on my
>>hands. I would not say I'm a master machinist but
>>able to tackle most jobs in hand with respectable
>>results.
>>Word has now got round - go see him, he's got a big
>>lathe and a big mill. So they do and I get moaning
>>and groaning that they only want this done or that -
>>can't find a toolmaker anywhere, when they can they
>>want the earth for a small job. The most common is
>>'they're not interested', jobs not worth the time.
>>I've had one chap who only wanted a shaft turning to
>>length and a an M10 thread up its bum - the machine
>>shop asked if he had a drawing for it ???...Another
>>example - I work in a technology company who employ
>>ONLY graduate engineers with 1sts. One came to me
>>the other week wanting to borrow, and I quote - 'a
>>thing to make the hole that makes the thread in a
>>bit of metal'. I sat, thought and looked at him and
>>asked if would like to borrow a drill, a tap or
>>even, maybe, a chisel ?. The 'boy' had a look of
>>glee - 'oh goody, 3 things to choose from'.
>> 
>>Like Peter, I'm beginning to wonder what will happen
>>in the future to our 'engineering' capabilities. If
>>things do not improve, and soon, 'British
>>Engineered' will no longer be a by word, it will be
>>extinct.
>> 
>>I know one thing though - If all these chaps keep
>>turning up with these 'little jobs' that nobody else
>>are willing to do, the Burrell is going to pay for
>>itself in no time - which will be the problem - the
>>TIME.
>>Right, that's my rant over as well.
>> 
>>Steve
>> 
>> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: peter.chadwick@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>To: modeleng@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>Sent: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 6.29AM
>>Subject: [modeleng] Engineering education - rant
>>
>>So I'm out here at the office in San Diego. We
>>needed a special test 
>>fixture, and rather than do sketches that get turned
>>into proper drawings 
>>(or draw things correctly as I was taught 40+ years
>>ago!) followed by 
>>trying to find a jobbing shop that will follow
>>drawings rather than 
>>'improve' things to their ideas,  I made the
>>necessary fixture in the home 
>>workshop in the UK and shipped it out here. Bit of
>>turning, boring out 1 
>>inch diameter brass bar to fit 22mm copper water
>>pipe and a 21mm diameter 
>>1mm pitch thread cutting , with bits of material
>>threaded to suit, other 
>>turning, threading, knurling and milling jobs - 
>>very much an apprentice 
>>job of 40 years ago.So I find all the engineers here
>>(oldest is about 50) 
>>marvel at this.'Where did you learn to do this?'
>>sort of thing. 'How do 
>>you get this funny finish on a thumb screw?'
>>'Oh, you mean knurling'
>>'Is that what it is?'
>>Just what sort of engineers are we turning out these
>>days? OK, these are 
>>integrated circuit designers, but if you're working
>>on radio stuff, you 
>>must realise that specialised fixtures are needed. I
>>can see that in 10 
>>years time, this branch of engineering  will all be
>>designed in the far 
>>East because our so-called engineers won't know how
>>to produce the 
>>necessary mechanical fixtures. At the same time,
>>'one offs' that don't 
>>actually justify the time taken to program a CAE
>>machine just won't be 
>>available. Meanwhile,our so-called 'engineers' have
>>a very narrow view....
>>
>>I wonder if the 'amateur' or 'model' engineer will
>>suddenly be in demand 
>>for 'craftmanship', although God knows, I'm no
>>craftsman. Go to the ME 
>>exhibitions, and marvel and wonder at the real
>>craftmanship.......I do.
>>
>>Not that I know any mechanical engineering. I took
>>ONC Applied Mechanics 5 
>>times................and failed 5 times. Then gave
>>up.
>>
>>Peter Chadwick.
>>Radio Engineer (and proud of it!)
>>Swindon - sometimes. San Diego this week.
>>
>>MODEL ENGINEERING DISCUSSION LIST.
>>
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>>
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>>    
>>
>
>
>
> 
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