[mea] Re: Wording
- From: Karen McElrea <karenmcelrea@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:44:22 -0600
I think it can be solved by putting your self first. I won't say where I found
the dative verbs piece (pasted below), because there were cartoons on the site.
If any doubt remains, though, why don't we ask Vic Toews? He's a good listener
- I don't tweet, but people are tweeting questions as well as updates to him
(#tellVicEverything).
Reflexive Pronouns with Dative Verbs
Reflexive pronouns can be used with dative verbs
if the subject (agent) is the same person as the object (receiver). Dative
verbs take an indirect object: He gave himself (obj.) a break
(indirect obj.); and may use a preposition: He made a sandwich for himself. /
He sent a letter to himself.
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
From: cheri.frazer@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:07:00 -0600
Ok, someone has pointed to Chicago (15th
ed.) section 5.50, #3:
"If a prepositional phrase contains
more than one object, then all the objects must be in the objective case
{...send an invitation to him and me}.
But that's a sample in which each part
makes sense:
Send an invitation to him
Send an invitation to me
Send an invitation to him and me
Does it make sense to say [I made] coffee
for me? Or does it even matter, since the prepositional phrase still
contains more than one object? Would you distinguish between "I sent
an invitation to Jane and me" [as one unit] and "...and myself"
[as two different recipients] of invitations? Or would you simply change
to "I sent invitations to Jane and myself" to distinguish them?
From:
Karen McElrea <karenmcelrea@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
<mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
2012-02-16 04:36 PM
Subject:
[mea] Re: Wording
Sent by:
mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Yes, that's what I've been saying.
From: bjbecker@xxxxxxx
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:26:30 -0600
A reflexive is used for an
object that renames the subject. Subject is ‘I’ – Object is prep.
phrase ‘Jane and myself’. You need a reflexive here to refer
back to the subject. J
Barbara J. Becker, Editor
MEASURED WORDS second helpings
(204) 837-9680
bjbecker@xxxxxxx
www.barbarajbecker.com
From: mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Karen McElrea
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 3:18 PM
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
Hmm... I think we're saying the same thing,
here. I just was substituting a different example of the same error. A
reflexive pronoun refers back to itself, no matter which person it's in.
If it's the object of its own action, a reflexive pronoun is required.
From: bjbecker@xxxxxxx
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:12:08 -0600
He is 3rd person
– me is 1st person – that’s why you can’t sub he for me. Myself
is correct because it is a reflexive pronoun that renames the subject (I).
Creating a compound does not overrule correct grammar. If the compound
is wrong and ‘Jane and me’ is wrong – the fact that it is a compound
doesn’t make it right. Sh’be myself.
Barbara J. Becker, Editor
MEASURED WORDS second helpings
(204) 837-9680
bjbecker@xxxxxxx
www.barbarajbecker.com
From: mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of cheri.frazer@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 2:30 PM
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
That was one of the suggestions :)
I'm going to steal your 'broken MP3 file' comment. Brilliant.
I may have to unpack my books for this one. Drat. We're getting new carpets
and everything is put away so nicely...
From:
Karen McElrea <karenmcelrea@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
<mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
2012-02-16 02:25 PM
Subject:
[mea] Re: Wording
Sent by:
mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
I hate to sound like a broken record (or MP3 file), but your compound object
argument would mean it's correct to say "Jim made coffee for Jane
and he."
This Jane character sounds like a troublemaker, anyway. How about not even
offering her coffee; just make one for yourself and maybe she'll take the
hint and leave.
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
From: cheri.frazer@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 14:03:55 -0600
No, this isn't an issue in a document, it's an on-purpose language debate.
I work with enthusiasts.
From:
susan.portelance@xxxxxxxxx
To:
mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date:
2012-02-16 01:57 PM
Subject:
[mea] Re: Wording
Sent by:
mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
I prefer me to myself personally. Is there any other reference to Jane?
Can you say "I made coffee for both of us"?
Sent on the TELUS Mobility network with BlackBerry
From: cheri.frazer@xxxxxxxxxx
Sender: mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:52:46 -0600
To: <mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
ReplyTo: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Re: Wording
That's today's raging debate among the word enthusiasts:
I made coffee for Jane
I made coffee for myself
therefore I made coffee for Jane and myself
OR
I made coffee for [compound object of Jane and me]
I'm trying to juggle a hair-on-fire deadline at the same time and I don't
want to dig my reference books out of boxes... sorry to be so lazy, but
this is fun :)
From:
Karen McElrea <karenmcelrea@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
<mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
2012-02-16 01:48 PM
Subject:
[mea] Re: Wording
Sent by:
mea-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Doesn't this call for the reflexive pronoun, since you're the object of
your own action? You wouldn't say, e.g., "She bought a muffin for
Craig, Jane, and her," or, removing Jane from the picture, you wouldn't
say "I made coffee for me."
To: mea@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [mea] Wording
From: cheri.frazer@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:16:03 -0600
Can you think of any situation in which this would be correct:
"I made coffee for Jane and me"
?
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