[macvoiceover] Re: getting windows out of your head:

  • From: Jacob Schmude <j.schmude@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:37:13 -0500

Everett
Yes, it will always lag behind if that attitude is taken. By believing something we can come very close to making it happen, in this case if we wish to believe we will be behind, then we will be. The problem, in many cases, with "in the meantime" is that the "meantime" never ends and then we lose site of the end we were attempting to achieve in the first place. The focus needs to shift, or we're doomed to repeat the same situation over and over again and continue with the "in the meantime" approaches we've been dealing with for years. In any case, Keith is probably right in this is going way outside the list's territory now. As much as I do enjoy these debates, as they really do make one think about the issues at hand, they are also never- ending debates. It's almost like a philosophical argument, and in many ways that's what it does come down to when you take it right down to the core.


On Feb 3, 2009, at 17:24, E.J. Zufelt wrote:

Jacob,

Access technology will always lag behind main stream technology. I full support the concept of working with software developers and web content developers, but having a scriptable screen-reader does have an advantage for the meantime.

Everett

On 3-Feb-09, at 1:17 PM, Jacob Schmude wrote:

Hi Everett
Wouldn't it be better to inform the application developer of the problem and get them to fix it? The more we can make developers aware of the issues, the more likely they will be fixed. Scripting on the part of the screen reader is, in many cases, a stop-gap solution to the real problem. I'm not saying in some cases it isn't warranted, but in many cases I would rather see the long-ranging effects of application developers becoming more aware of accessibility concerns. This is what is being achieved on the Mac with Voiceover. It won't happen overnight, and it won't be an easy battle in some cases. But I believe the end-result will be better in the long run for everyone. It's frustrating at times yes, and I've had many moments where I've wanted to scream in frustration at Apple, at the app developers, and at everyone in general :). But it's not as frustrating as it is to pay money for a script when you've already paid for the program itself, not to mention the screen reader. Lookat jTunes for an example of this, $70 to access a program that was free for everyone else to access. Fortunately, that particular issue isn't of concern anymore thanks to Apple and GW Micro, but it's a very good example of the kind of ecosystem that has sprung up around the scripting mentality we have in the Windows world. In the end, who's responsibility is it? That's the core question at the hart of the issue here, and I firmly believe the focus must shift if we are ever to have equal access for the same cost and at the same time as others do. If not, it is inevitable that access technology will always lag behind the current mainstream technology.


On Feb 3, 2009, at 11:55, E.J. Zufelt wrote:

David,

What about when an application isn't providng the correct feedback? Isn't it reasonable to want to write a script to get the correct information from that application and then to use Voiceover to present it? For example, I would like to know the online status of contacts in Skype, which is currently not spoken, I would like to be able to navigate web pages in safari by ARIA landmarks.

Thanks,
Everett


On 3-Feb-09, at 12:50 PM, David Poehlman wrote:

I am right on both counts. The what could be needs to be approached quite carefully and I covered that in my previous message. For more food for thought, consider this. Apple providing scripting for accessibility will be lamented as not comparable with JAWS but nonetheless, for voiceover and universal access, it would be the correct solution. As I said in my message, accessibility is about being able to carry out tasks and getting proper feedback.

On Feb 3, 2009, at 11:45 AM, E.J. Zufelt wrote:

Why not compare the differences and say Voiceover does one thing better, but another thing not quite as well.

I think you are right when talking about what is, but not when talking about what could be.

Everett


On 3-Feb-09, at 12:25 PM, David Poehlman wrote:

The discussion on scripting prompts me to write this. It is important that we look at voiceover in terms of voiceover and the mac os. When we attempt to do otherwise, we muddy the watters for ourselves and others. It is one thing to say that we need a way to carry out functions and be provided with proper feedback and information. It is quite another to expect that what works in windows can be applied to mac os.


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