[macvoiceover] Re: Questions after playing with readiris demo

What theory are you talking about.
I'm talking about *real* things here.
There's lots and lots of information on apple's page about accessibility for their Xtools development environment.
(where's the theory in that?)
Because of this, most programs are (mostly) accessible out of the box, with only a few missing labels if the developer didn't include accessibility tags. (where's the theory in that?) Lots of folks on this list have emailed developers, and asked for these labels to be added, and it has been done.
(where's the theory in that?)
Because of the work apple has done with voiceover, even developers who don't know anything at all about accessibility apis, still have a mostly accessible application right out of the box if they use apple provided tags in their programs.
(where's the theory in that?)
The entire osx operating system has been built to be accessible, and with each additional release (or nearly so) apple provides even more functionality to voiceover users.
Microsoft does not do these things.
So, I wholeheartedly dispute your statement that it's a narrow mindset, or that it doesn't really work that way. If you'd like to provide proof to backup your claim that it doesn't work that way, then I'm perfectly willing to hear it, but until you do, I continue to support the point of view, that accessibility is *not* a bolt-on when using osx, as it is with other operating systems, and more over, as I've pointed out before, voiceover users receive exactly the same information as sighted folks do when using osx, this is another claim that cannot be made for other systems. I realize this list is not a discussion of windows vs osx vs other oses, but nothing irritates me more than folks claiming osx provides nothing different from other operating systems. Anyone who says that either hasn't used voiceover long enough to know how to effectively use it, or they're deliberately misrepresenting the facts, and I don't think that either is fair to osx when spread among the vi community as a whole. Osx isn't for everyone, and that's fine, if you don't like it, don't use it. But that's no reason to make claims such as programs written for osx aren't accessible, or that nothing is accessible by default, especially since there are plenty of examples to the contrary. Yes, there are things that osx doesn't do well, and yes theres applications that are written for osx that aren't accessible, but two things to remember here. First, osx with voiceover is only (almost) 4 years old, and second, no matter how much work apple puts into making developers work easier, if folks don't follow the guidelines when designing their interfaces, then those interfaces aren't likely to be accessible. But, that's beside the point here, and this email has gone way off my original point. I'll of course leave you to your opinions, since everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I will (attempt) to set anyone straight who claims that osx isn't accessible.





On Feb 13, 2009, at 8:59 AM, Tim Grady wrote:

In theory that all sounds good, but it isn't true in the real world, and by the way, I don't believe in the Windows Mac mindset. There should only be the way you cope with things. Apple and Microsoft have nothing to do with what I am saying. If you think they do then your focus is quite narrow.
On Feb 13, 2009, at 9:34 AM, Travis Siegel wrote:
Here again is the windows vs mac mindset.
If you're going to completely switch to the mac, you *really* need to get rid of the windows mindset. OSX is a *fully* accessible os, and there is no need to wish for full access, it already exists with most applications. And, since apple themselves makes the tools available for developing applications for the mac, they do a great deal to alert developers to the accessibility features of the applications. Unlike windows, all osx developers at least are aware there is a disability api for osx, even if they don't know exactly what it is. Thus, emailing a developer, and asking to have a button labeled with an accessible tag, or asking them to put accessible text on other items usually meets with a positive response, because they know what's going on, and why. This kind of cooperation is not possible on windows, because in most cases, developers aren't even aware of disabled users, and even if they are, generally, they don't know what needs done to make their apps accessible. Apple has entire website sections devoted strictly to accessiblity, and how to make programs work with voiceover and their other access functions. Their developer tools include access into each product produced, and as long as developers follow simple guidelines laid out by apple, then an application is accessible right out of the box, and often times, the developer doesn't know disabled users are using their programs, because they did such a good job, they never even get complaints about it not working.
This is the biggest difference between osx and windows.
Things *do* work with full access on osx, and the whole we can't expect full access attitude is really getting old. Osx *does* offer full access, and will continue to do so as long as folks keep developers aware of the issues.


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