[lit-ideas] Re: speaking of libraries in the United States of Earth
- From: "Mike Geary" <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 12:14:16 -0500
>> It's also difficult because Southern Missouri has a number of legal folk
>> whose jobs have been taken away by the rise in these plants hiring illegal
>> immigrants (even though there does seem to be a 'racket' going on whereby
>> the plant management assists in the creation of illegal 'legal'
>> documentation...so unemployment in that area is simply horrible for the
>> people whose families have been there from about the time the homesteading
>> act came into play... The illegal immigrants working in those factories,
>> though, do not get paid what they ought to be paid--the conditions and
>> safety issues are simply awful (you would not eat Tyson chicken if you kne
>> w...<g>) and, Eric is correct-the big corporate boys are simply raking in
>> the profit. (the cheaper prices have NOT been passed down to the
>> consumer--chicken prices have also skyrocketed since NAFTA...) <<
and
>> In the KC area, though, Eric is correct--the companies who are hiring
>> illegal immigrants are doing so in order to NOT pay living wages...and they
>> are NOT passing the savings onto the consumer. And, many of them who get
>> caught have been put in horrible situations, both work and living. (I have a
>> friend who is a Union guy who talks about some of this--it's a hard thing in
>> the KC area as unions are NOT popular ... <<
Yes -- exactly, and why isn't anyone screaming to throw these SOBs in jail --
never mind, I know why. We all know why.
>> In a way, though, I find it a rather intriguing dilemma--for if illegal
>> immigration is 'okay' (as I seem to be hearing you say it is...for a variety
>> of reasons), <<
I never said illegal immigration is "okay" -- I'm saying that attacking the
immigrants is just kicking a man when he's down, a cheap way to feel good and
patriotic about yourself. If you really want to stop illegal immigration throw
the business owners in jail who hire them.
>> then the folk who pushed the Native Americans out were 'okay' to do that,
>> too. <<
I'm sorry, I don't follow this at all. Or you equating a man doing back
breaking work for very low wages with what our great grandfathers did to the
Indians?
I wish it believed that Unions were the answer. But 30 years ago companies
starting leaving the Midwest and Northeast to build plants in the South and
West where unions were almost nonexistent -- it was cheaper to move than pay
decent wages. Now they're leaving the South for Mexico, China, India --
wherever, it's cheaper. And as soon as another country offers tax breaks,
they'll up and move again. It's the global economy. Who knows, most of us
might become wetbacks in Mexico in a few years, anything to keep body and soul
together. I can't wait until they curse us for sponging off their system and
not even speaking the language.
Mike Geary
----- Original Message -----
From: eternitytime1@xxxxxxx
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 9:19 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: speaking of libraries in the United States of Earth
Dear Mike,
well, obviously <g> MY ancestors were the ones who created the art and
architecture, were [no doubt] the few crying in the wilderness about stopping
the Crusades, etc. (or, another point of view--<g>--those were all our past
lives and we are now trying to reconcile our present with our past...or
something like that. I'll have to check the Theory of the Month Club listing to
see if that is there...) Even though you may be feeling the remorse over the
horrible acts done by your ancestors [or by yourself in a past life <g>], I do
believe that, knowing you, there were at least SOME of your white European
ancestors who were probably the ones working to create positive lives for those
in their everyday of life.
I do kind of think that Andy and Eric have some valid points and know that
the whole situation causes lots of people (even in the White Majority who blame
NAFTA for the increase of illegal immigration, etc-though I'm still working on
how that is construed as part of the whole issue...but in MY area, it really
does seem like there was a laxness that occurred in order to keep the few few
remaining manufacturing units in Southern Missouri/Northern Arkansas from
disappearing. There was a case in one of those spots just very recently
whereby they 'raided' a Tyson plant [the few remaining plants there hire the
majority of the illegal immigrants who eventually end up in the KC area...it's
like one of the stops on the Underground Railroad for these folks...) Anyway,
the raid has caused a great deal of dilemma--for though they now have in
custody many many who were here illegally--with illegal drivers licenses, etc.,
some of the folks have litlte ones. The littl e ones were born here and so are
US citizens--and so law enforcement and social service people are a bit at a
loss--this has not generally happened before. In the past, if there were kids,
the kids were also here illegally and had been smuggled across either with or
after the parents were here. But, not at this point. It's also difficult
because Southern Missouri has a number of legal folk whose jobs have been taken
away by the rise in these plants hiring illegal immigrants (even though there
does seem to be a 'racket' going on whereby the plant management assists in the
creation of illegal 'legal' documentation...so unemployment in that area is
simply horrible for the people whose families have been there from about the
time the homesteading act came into play... The illegal immigrants working in
those factories, though, do not get paid what they ought to be paid--the
conditions and safety issues are simply awful (you would not eat Tyson chicken
if you kne w...<g>) and, Eric is correct-the big corporate boys are simply
raking in the profit. (the cheaper prices have NOT been passed down to the
consumer--chicken prices have also skyrocketed since NAFTA...)
As of the time that I arrived in Texas, there was still no resolvement of
what to do with either the parents of the kids born here or the kids
themselves. I think almost all of those families did have relatives who are
here legally ... so I would suspect that the parents will be given the choice
as to whether or not to leave their kids here or take them with them when they
are deported...but neither choice was very appealing to either the law
enforcement people or the social service people.
I don't hear the (former White European) folk in that area being mean and
power-hungry or evil in this regard. Most of them in this area (we're talking
Ozarks, okay? Most formerly from Scotland and such...) are awfully caring
people who, especially, understand the concept of seeking a better life for
your family. (most of their befores came here to do just that...)
In the KC area, though, Eric is correct--the companies who are hiring illegal
immigrants are doing so in order to NOT pay living wages...and they are NOT
passing the savings onto the consumer. And, many of them who get caught have
been put in horrible situations, both work and living. (I have a friend who is
a Union guy who talks about some of this--it's a hard thing in the KC area as
unions are NOT popular ... at least in St. Louis they are still strong and so
you don't have quite the same problems [I think]...the Unions there do alot
more education than anywhere else that I have seen, though...and really make a
healthy difference in people's everyday lives...)
In a way, though, I find it a rather intriguing dilemma--for if illegal
immigration is 'okay' (as I seem to be hearing you say it is...for a variety of
reasons), then the folk who pushed the Native Americans out were 'okay' to do
that, too. Perhaps this is the Universe setting things up so that in the
current life, the Hispanic influx is really the Past Life Native Americans who
were pushed aside and the current folk losing jobs were the settlers who came
in? (must check with the Theory of the Month Club on that one...<g>)
As I have read, though--it was not really the fighting between the soldiers
and such with the Native Americans which did in the Native American
lifestyle--it was the fact that there were so so many leaving the cities,
coming from Other Countries, etc. and they just kept on a comin'... Maybe that
is what is happening here ... and the only possible solution if you care (as I
think Eric does) about people actually getting the dream of a better life) is
to begin to talk about what the value of a union is, what it can do--and to
have a unity of those who will not be willing to just 'settle' for 'better than
Mexico' but who will actually see what IS possible, what WAS possible--and
decide that the unity which caused much of the social ills to change needs to
occur again.
I think Eric does have something -- the fragmentation does keep that from
happening. And, Andy has something too--if Mexico can keep their brightest
loyal to its country and sending home lots of $$, but outside of its borders,
then things won't change there, either. (I know they are not happy about those
who enter their borders from even poorer countries in Central/South
America...and always thought it odd that if they think we ought to open our
borders to them, that they ought to open THEIR borders to the rest of the
Lands...the fairness piece again. Part of my Old European makeup, though, I
think...<g>)
Best,
Marlena (wondering if she's ever going to leave Texas...)
-----Original Message-----
Which side of the coin do you want to look at? Andy and Eric are carping
about very, very poor people working illegally in the United States, working in
appalling conditions for the most part, as if they were causing great hardships
for this loving and benevolent country.
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