[lit-ideas] Re: sorry about the lack of a subject line Re: (no subject)
- From: Judith Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:17:56 +0000 (GMT)
> No one rapages (too strong a word?) about that exactly for
> the reasons you
> state. Namely, that it was in the Middle Ages and
> those practices have now
> been superceded by secular laws. We can hardly undo
> those practices but we
> can and want to protect young children now. There is
> an overwhelming
> consensus about this in Western countries.
(Only in Western countries?) Yes. But some feel able to call Mohammed a
paedophile with deliberate inflammatory intent and as though that somehow
indicted "Islam", while ignoring the history of child marriage and its
acceptance or indeed furtherance by "Western" churches. (In the US, churches
did not pledge to obey secular age-of-marriage law till 2008.)
> Regarding taking girls back to the home country for
> marriage and
> circumcision, the Canadian government was discussing
> arresting any parent
> whose child turns up at a health clinic and the parents are
> then seen to
> have violated Canadian law. I don't know if it
> passed. Perhaps our
I didn't query the point about circumscision, I said the point about marriage
seemed strange.
> I highly recommend that people on this list see a film
> called, "Osama."
the life of a girl living under the Taliban. Look, I think I know. I was
unhappy when the Soviet Union left Afghanistan, to be honest.
> Re Muslim marriages, one of my friends married her husband
> in a mosque with
> the imam officiating. The state of MI knew nothing
> about it. No state
> required license was applied for. But when she wanted
> a divorce, she could
> only get it if the husband consented.
(I think we've discussed this before.) Then they were not married -- unless
your law differs greatly from ours. But I agree they were married in Muslim
eyes so not being able to get a divorce is a problem (by the way, a Muslim
woman can obtain a divorce without a husband's consent -- but yes the rules are
one-sided; in the UK, they've been made less so, a man cannot simply pronounce
the marriage over).
As I think I said when this came up before -- re sharia tribunals in the UK --
problems will occur unless all religious marriages etc. are banned and even
then, there will be problems.....
> My other friends, a married couple, took their daughter to
> Syria to marry
> her cousin. But that was OK because she was in her
> 20s. The point of this
> is to keep perman
a young woman I know here was taken by her father -- whom I know -- to Pakistan
to marry a cousin. That is, the wedding took place there; they all live here.
(Her mother was dead; she died young, suddenly. He was griefstricken.) I am
sure it was a marriage by consent.
But I thought you might have cases of children taken abroad and married, that
was what you said caused concern in the US and Canada.
> As concerns the issue of giving a 7-9 year old girl to a
> grown man on his
> word that there would be no consumation until 14-15, I
> would like to see the
> Western parent that would do that today. To say
> nothing of the fact that it
> would be considered child abuse.
(funny you should say that: child abuse is what I've heard Western Muslims call
it. Presumably the Saudi imam who issued a fatwa against child marriage also
thinks that. )
-- and this has *what* to do with Baroness Warsi's comments on prejudice and
discrimination against British Muslims?
--- On Sun, 23/1/11, Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> From: Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: sorry about the lack of a subject line Re: (no
> subject)
> To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 19:41
> Judy: Yet nobody goes rampaging
> around yelling "paedophile" about
> > all of that.
>
> No one rapages (too strong a word?) about that exactly for
> the reasons you
> state. Namely, that it was in the Middle Ages and
> those practices have now
> been superceded by secular laws. We can hardly undo
> those practices but we
> can and want to protect young children now. There is
> an overwhelming
> consensus about this in Western countries.
>
> Regarding taking girls back to the home country for
> marriage and
> circumcision, the Canadian government was discussing
> arresting any parent
> whose child turns up at a health clinic and the parents are
> then seen to
> have violated Canadian law. I don't know if it
> passed. Perhaps our
> Canadian friends know. But a way around it is to go
> to Muslim doctors. And
> doctors in the US were discussing doing "partial
> circumcision" to accomodate
> Muslim parents. That was overwhelmingly rejected by
> the public.
>
> I highly recommend that people on this list see a film
> called, "Osama." It
> is the "name" of a ten year old girl. The film
> explains why. It was made
> by an Iranian film maker in Afghanistan.
>
> Re Muslim marriages, one of my friends married her husband
> in a mosque with
> the imam officiating. The state of MI knew nothing
> about it. No state
> required license was applied for. But when she wanted
> a divorce, she could
> only get it if the husband consented. This person, my
> friend, was born here
> and she was in her sixties.
> My other friends, a married couple, took their daughter to
> Syria to marry
> her cousin. But that was OK because she was in her
> 20s. The point of this
> is to keep permanent connection to family in the Middle
> East.
>
> As concerns the issue of giving a 7-9 year old girl to a
> grown man on his
> word that there would be no consumation until 14-15, I
> would like to see the
> Western parent that would do that today. To say
> nothing of the fact that it
> would be considered child abuse.
>
> Veronica Caley
>
> MIlford, MI
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Judith Evans" <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:59 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] sorry about the lack of a subject line
> Re: (no subject)
>
>
> My mailer's supposed to stop that happening.
>
> Judy Evans, Cardiff
>
> --- On Sun, 23/1/11, Judith Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> > From: Judith Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Subject: (no subject)
> > To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Date: Sunday, 23 January, 2011, 12:29
> > I forgot
> >
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > I recently finished a book called, "Why I Am Not A
> Muslim."
> >
> > Among the things I learned: that people who call
> the
> > prophet
> > a pedophile do so because he married
> > a nine year old girl,
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >
> > Yes. I don't know how common that was in the
> > sixth/seventh centuries, I did finally remember there
> were
> > child marriages (marriages of children aged 7 to 12/14
> -- in
> > England in the Middle Ages, and, presumably, before
> that
> > too. (7 because the church refused to recognize/allow
> > marriages below the age of 7 except where interests of
> state
> > were involved). We have no idea how widespread the
> > practice was, as records are faulty.
> >
> > Yet nobody goes rampaging around yelling "pedophile"
> about
> > all of that.
> >
> > (I add that pedophilia was not necessarily involved
> in
> > dynastic child marriage or indeed in non-dynastic
> arranged
> > marriages.)
> >
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Currently, there is a concern in Western countries
> that
> > some Muslims are taking daughters to the home country
> for
> > circumcision and early marriage. I have read about
> > this issue being of concern in the U.S. and Canada
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<
> >
> > this puzzled me slightly - the early marriage part,
> that
> > is. I'd have thought the US and Canada would, like
> the
> > UK, recognize only legally contracted marriages. The
> > main relevant "home countries" have minimum marriage
> ages
> > similar to ours. Saudi Arabia has no minimum marriage
> > age but then, I take it a Saudi child marriage
> contracted
> > there would not be accepted here. (The Yemen also I
> > think must have no minimum age.)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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