this is an interesting view: why don't you count logic as philosophy? On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx wrote: > McEvoy: > > "philosophy was taught at > Oxford only via Classics or Greats - so only people who already had a > linguistic turn in dead languages (Ancient Greek being dead now, I think)were > allowed to touch the subject" > > --- Thank you for your recollections, and am sorry you had a bad time at > Oxford with the philosophy of mind -- and ...? -- what other course? > > Philosophy of Mind is quite a clique at Oxford. Since they only have TWO > chairs: Metaphysics and Morals -- I don't count LOGIC as Philosophy -- they > NEED > to have Readerships. Gareth Evans was thus Wilde Reader in Mental Philosophy, > etc. > > And if you're into mental, you're not into metaphysical, and all that. > > But, as I wrote in my Little Go and Great Go, indeed, "Classic" was the gate > to Philosophy, but I'm not so sure that was a bad thing. > > I can speak as an Indo-European speaker. Latin and Greek are Indo-European, > and so, not such a torture to learn, as if I were, say, Japanese -- McCreery > may inform us as to how Philosophy is taught in Tokyo. > > So, it's more like a mental exercise, and linguistic turn, yes, I like the > idea -- by McGee that it was the first turn of the screw, as it were. Grice > admits that in a passage I've quoted elsewhere about the stonewalls of > Oxbridge > being protrected by this 'sensibility of linguistic usage', etc. > > If you think of it, life is pretty long, so having, say 5 years -- as the > Greats programme Grice engaged in was -- into Classics and Philosophy via the > Classics, you still have a lot of life to develop other subjects. > > I think part of this is the idea that Oxford is so old and medieval, that it > would be a pain if you were to go through philosophy without being able to > grasp, say, William of Ockham's Summa Totius Logicae in the original -- given > that English translations are a murder. > > Ditto for the Greeks. > > Also, when you've 'imbued' in the Classics -- and they tend to be VERY > repetitive -- you realise that, say Locke, is fighting, struggling, to get a > philosophical idiom in the Vernacular. > > It would be a pity if Oxford types were only taught ENGLISH philosophy > written in English, so as a foreigner for whom English is not a native > language, I > welcome that kind of xenophilic affiliation with the Classics. But I _am_ > biased. > > It's also the English personality; because you won't see in Oxford > philosophers an overwhelm of quotations of Classical authors, as you would > find in > France if somebody had done that curriculum -- Think Michael Chase. > > The Classic curriculum was something they had to undergo, and kept it silent > and for themselves, without need to quote. > > What the Classic background may explain is their idea to provide the same > kind of syntactic analysis for English idioms, > > When you say, 'moving the arm', 'my arm moved'. I can picture an Etonian -- > and Austin and Grice were public school boys -- who had mastered Latin and > Greek already in the 6th form, and who thus therefore had more time to > explore > philosophy per se --unlike students coming from other backgrounds where the > Classic language requirement would be more like a 'filter' --. > > And I can picture the tutor or classics master having the student translate > into English the idiomatic phrase in Greek or Latin. This had the big drawback > that ENGLISH grammar was underestimated and only the Categories of LATIN > grammar were seen as useful. > > Classics were never taught _per se_ but as a mental exercise to have the > students aware of their English language background, etc. > > It's interesting that Grice taught Classics for a year at Rossall just upon > getting his MA from Oxford. Apparently he did not like it, and came back to > Oxford as a post-graduate student with Merton (Harmondsworth Fellow) -- and > finally obtained his fellowship at St. John's. > > It's misleading to think of a school, too, when one has been in Oxford, and > see the distance of it all. A whole city dedicated to philosophy, and things > pretty far away from each other. I can imagine Grice at his study at St. > John's not really having to SEE Pears at Christ Church. > > And the figure master of the 'Oxford school' of the playgroup was really not > Ryle, as we know, but Austin. The man was so distant, that nobody (surely > Grice included) considered him his friend. He would spend Saturday afternoons, > and Sundays gardening in his rather country retreat --. > > If you think of it, it's just as well, because it must be pretty boring to > think that one philosopher's FRIEND has to be a philosopher! > > What is also very abstract is that the idea of "University of Oxford" is so > abstract. There are so many loyalties at play. Your alma mater, the > Sub-Faculty of Philosophy, the Ockham Society, the Jowett Society, the > Philosophy Club, > etc. The different colleges (although they don't say 'college'). > > Plus the thing is a TOWN -- and I did detect a sort of resentment on the > part of the GOWN that High Street is SO BUSY! And noisy! > > Still, I think it would be the best place -- especially if you are attending > for the Spring of 1946 -- to engage yourself in the serious study of > philosophy. > > Think of it also in political terms. Austin had fought in the War, and so > had Grice, Strawson, and most of them. So: > > (1) They were pretty sceptical about human progress in general, and would > rather never again see a riffle. > > (2) They wanted to be left alone doing what they wanted. And what they > wanted is TALK, in ways that examined what they were saying. Rather than > building > big systems and castles in the air. > > Cheers, > > JL Speranza > Argentine Society for Philosophical Analysis > Buenos Aires, Argentina > Author of "The History of Grice". > > > > > > ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com > off address: #201 West Building, Philosophy, Duke University box 90743, Durham, NC 27708 home ph#: [1] 9196881856 cellph#: [1[] 9195997065 (voicemail is available on said numbers) email palma@xxxxxxxx ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html