[lit-ideas] Re: Victor Hanson in Iraq
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:01:02 -0800
The Civilization is called "Islamic" not "Arabic." Any nation in the Middle
East is going to have a problem becoming the Core State. No Arab state is
up to it. So what non-Arab state is a candidate. The most powerful are
Iran, Pakistan and Indonesia. Huntington speculated about which nation it
might be. I have speculated from time to time. I am not the first to
mention Iran, but in the current context one can envision by which Iran
could become the Core State.
The majority of the Muslims in the Middle East are Fundamentalist in my
opinion -- an opinion based upon the prevalence of Fundamentalist speeches
and writing coming out of the Middle East and that absence of moderate
writings and speeches. I never said that all Muslims in existence were
Fundamentalist. I just don't know, and neither do you. None of us has that
information because no one has the freedom to go in to all the Muslim
nations to find out.
If you recall the debate with Omar, I said that only those who left the
Middle East could be open about their Moderateness. To claim to be a
moderate in the Middle East was life-shortening. For awhile I entertained
the idea that the Moderates were just hiding out, but in reading apologists
for them, I found their moderation a fiction. It was Fundamentalism that
was being described and not Moderation.
I have often talked about Turkey. I read a few books a few years back and
commented upon them. Turkey has had a relationship with the Middle East.
Until WWI it controlled it. Turkey couldn't become the Core State, because
the Arab states don't trust it. They see its turning toward the EU with
suspicion. They see them wanting to side with the West. They consider them
an Islamic version of a colonial power.
We must concentrate upon the Arabs because they consider themselves the
preeminent Muslims -- the first and therefore truest Muslims. This is not
supported by theology, but it is a prejudice that hasn't been erased. It
has been followed by Osama. Khomeini attempted to make light of the
difference between Persian & Arab, Shiite & Sunni but his ecumenism didn't
carry very far and he was not successful in exporting his revolution to any
nation other than Lebanon.
The Muslims in India cause no more trouble than the Muslims in America
because they are largely integrated. There is no significant Islamist
movement in either nation; so Moderate Muslims do exist there. There have
been Islamist inroads in Bangladesh and Turkey. Turkey might well have
become an Islamist nation because the outlying rural population has become
largely Fundamentalist, but the military stepped in and restored secular
order.
As to what blame I am blaming, I am blaming the Left for pressuring the US
to pull us out of Iraq before we fully establish a moderate government
there, or until we learn conclusively that a moderate government is an
impossibility. We should play this thing out and not give up at the first
blustering puffing of an Islamist chest. We defeated Saddam's army but
didn't thoroughly destroy and lock them up' so many of them formed a
Baathist insurgency augmented by non-Iraqi Islamists. Well if that's they
way they are going to be, the Leftists implied, then we ought to give up.
Notice the fondness for giving up which is considered the next best thing to
surrendering before the war starts.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:33 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Victor Hanson in Iraq
In several emails, Lawrence makes a number of claims:
> The biggest problem in the Middle East according to his paradigm is that
it doen't have a
> core state. If Huntington is right, then why not Iran? Could Iran rise
to the occasion?
> It is interesting to consider.
A slight problem: the Persians aren't Arabs.
> There is considerable evidence that the "majority" of Islam (something we
have pursued
> here on Lit-Ideas from time to time) is fundamentalist.
The majority of Muslims are not fundamentalists.
Indonesia 170,310,000 million
Bangladesh 106,050,000 million
India 103,000,000 million
Turkey 62,410,000 million
Those are the largest Muslim populations. They are moderate or centrists.
> Pakistan, Libya, Iraq, Syria, and Iran...
So, Pakistan, a military dictatorship that uses Islam to prop itself up,
Libya is a
"Pan-Arab socialist state", Iraq was a secular dictatorship (under Saddam),
Syria is another
secular dictatorship, and finally, Iran, a theocracy.
See? You lump those countries together as if they were primarily defined as
Arabs or
Islamic, but Iran isn't Arab and most of them aren't Islamic states.
And you clearly ignore Indonesia, Bangladesh, and India because they're not
Arabs, yet they
have huge Muslim popuations. What about Turkey? They certainly aren't Arabs.
> What is the danger of Leftism today? They represent a political position
that is largely
> anti-American. In any conflict, they side with the enemies of the US.
75% of Americans are anti-American. The US Congress is anti-American. Bush
Sr. and James
Baker are anti-American.
> Saddam and his WMDs...
The "threat of WMDs" was used to mislead people into supporting the war.
Lawrence, it was a
lie.
The Bush White House, (namely, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Card, and Rove)
lost the war.
The four greatest mistakes were the decision to attack, the decision by Bush
to not install
Chalabi, the firing of Baathists, and the demobilization of the Iraqi Army.
Did you know that the last two decisions were made by Douglas Feith and
Bush/Rice weren't
even notified? Not even "oh, by the way..."? Remarkable that the President
and the National
Security Advisor weren't in charge at all.
You want to put the blame for Iraq on Leftists or whatever. No, it whole
thing was Bush and
his White House. They made this disaster all by themselves. You're just
trying to blame
others. You won't understand that your Neocons and your patriots and your
America-Firsters
engineered the greatest disaster to ever befall this country.
If you want some amusing reading, look up Douglas Feith in Wikipedia. He has
quite an entry.
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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