[lit-ideas] Re: U.N. Special Committee on Palestine

Stan would have us here believe that the relationship
between the army and the state is Israel is no
different than in Sweden. He is forgetting that all
Jewish men in Israel serve a three year compulsory
military service, and women two. Most men also spend a
significant portion of their adult lives in the
reserve service. Many civilian employers require a
record of army service. The military service is
central to the Israel society in a way that is
dificult to imagine for someone living in the US or
Europe, and the army leadership has considerable
political authority. Most of Israel's prime ministers
(in the recent years, Yitzhak Rabin, Ehud Barak, and
Ariel Sharon) and all of its defense ministers were
former chiefs of staff, a practice that considerably
differs from most Western countries. The current
government happens to be the first where both the
prime minister and the defense minister come from
civilian ranks, and its ability to control the
military is seriously doubted by informed
commentators. Of course, that Stan doesn't know or
doesn't mention any of this is not a reflection on his
being an informed and impartial observer. 

O.K.


--- Stan Spiegel <writeforu2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Omar says:
> >What should be seen as 'Israel', the IDF or the
> government,
> >is a difficult question.
> 
> Omar writes
> >"If you mean Hizbollah, I don't consider it a
> terrorist organization."
> 
> Omar seems to be going unchallenged lately. The long
> well-documented 
> responses that Lawrence has been writing are not
> very effective with Omar 
> because, like Irene, he doesn't read more than the
> first paragraph.
> 
> Letting him say such questionable things without
> challenging him makes him 
> think we agree with him. Imagine saying Hezbollah's
> not a terorist 
> organization? Imagine saying it's difficult to say
> who represents Israel --  
> the military or the government? Israel, like the
> USA, is a democratic state. 
> The military doesn't represent Israel any more than
> it does America. But 
> saying that -- unchallenged -- makes the more naive
> among us think Israel is 
> just a banana republic. It isn't.
> 
> And everything Omar says -- since he's clearly
> identified himself as 
> anti-Israel and anti-semitic -- needs to be
> scrutinized. He's very 
> intelligent -- and writes intelligently. And that
> makes what he says seem so 
> reasonable. But, after all, it's only reasonable if
> you only pay attention 
> to the tone of voice, not the substance.
> 
> Stan Spiegel
> Portland, ME
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Omar Kusturica" <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 2:35 PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: U.N. Special Committee on
> Palestine
> 
> 
> >
> > The IDF on middle to top levels has great freedom
> of
> > action, especially in times like these and with a
> new
> > government that has little military credentials
> and
> > experience. (That, too, is similar to the Kfar
> Qana
> > incident in 1996 under Shimon Peres' government.)
> What
> > should be seen as 'Israel', the IDF or the
> government,
> > is a difficult question.
> >
> > O.K.
> >
> >
> > --- Judith Evans <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> >
> >> > Using the "by the preponderance of the
> evidence"
> >> standard I do
> >> > believe that the UN peacekeepers were
> deliberately
> >> targeted,
> >> but
> >> > I doubt that the decision was made at the
> highest
> >> levels of the
> >> > Israeli government
> >>
> >> I too think -- using the same standard as you --
> >> that the firings
> >> and
> >> bombings were deliberate.  My problem with
> Carol's
> >> question lies
> >> -- as I think it does for you -- in "(did) Israel
> >> intentionally
> >> (target)"
> >> as opposed to "were the shots fired and the bombs
> >> dropped
> >> deliberately".
> >>
> >> Judy Evans, Cardiff, UK
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Peter D. Junger"
> >> <junger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 3:49 PM
> >> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: U.N. Special Committee
> on
> >> Palestine
> >>
> >>
> >> > Carol Kirschenbaum writes:
> >> >
> >> > : I, for one, wonder if anyone on this list
> >> believes that
> >> Israel
> >> > : intentionally targeted those UN peacekeepers.
> >> >
> >> > Using the "by the preponderance of the
> evidence"
> >> standard I do
> >> > believe that the UN peacekeepers were
> deliberately
> >> targeted,
> >> but
> >> > I doubt that the decision was made at the
> highest
> >> levels of the
> >> > Israeli government.  Uing the same standard I
> also
> >> believe that
> >> > the bombing of the USS Liberty was deliverate.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
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