[lit-ideas] Re: Too painful to talk about?
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:11:41 -0500
I used a question mark and implicit within the question mark is an ellipsis
("Too painful [for you] to talk about?"). So, clearly, it was not too painful
for me to talk about, but rather I questioned other people's silence on the
subject. Regarding whether the actions are normative or not, agreed, it is not
normative in the sense that it is certainly not encouraged. By that standard,
however, the USSR had a wonderful government, since on the books their
constitution guaranteed all sorts of wonderful things. The reality was quite
different. If the military or the government isn't criticized for wrongdoing,
how will it ever be any good? How will we ever have a democracy except by
questioning? They're humans Lawrence, and give them half a chance, humans will
be evil. They have to be questioned if you want to stay superior. Questioning
is what makes us superior. You would take away our questioning, which is to
say, our democracy.
Regarding patriotism, the Soviets were extremely patriotic. Patriotic and
paranoid. Fortunately, they were sane because we never had a war with them.
Americans are patriotic and paranoid too and ironically quicker on the draw
than were the Soviets. The Soviets allowed no disagreement, no questioning, no
reading or discussion except what supported Party actions, which is pretty much
your position. You would have made an exemplary Soviet man. Of course, your
response to me will be that I am unpatriotic, I don't see the danger, I'm on
the dark side, never hearing your own words. Whatever. Go for it, Tovarischt
Lawrence. Drop your bombs and make the world safe for democracy. I really
don't want to talk about this anymore. It's like talking about creating better
humans (not perfect, just better). It's pointless. People like war, so let
them have war. They like dirty air, let them have dirty air. I'm done.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 2/15/2006 10:40:49 AM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Too painful to talk about?
Irene wrote: Lawrence's saying I'm on the dark side implies that issues break
down to good/bad. We're good, they're bad; or, from their perspective, they're
good and we're bad. Military solutions are perfect for such things. If one
were to look for a middle ground of some sort, a win/win not involving force,
that's more complicated, too much trouble. It's much easier in the short run
to just drop a bomb. Lawrence continues to support an action that even members
of the U.S. Congress and the military have agreed was counterproductive.
Lawrence replies: You use the word ?implies,? to take what I wrote, which was
pretty clear, off into something that has no relationship with the subject you
brought up (unless of course you didn?t care what the issue was and only wanted
to criticize the U.S.) You brought up an act you thought had been done by our
military and wrote as if it was normative. Your subsequent comments reinforced
that you thought it was normative. I wrote that our military SOP did not
condone the actions you described as normative. I further commented that the
force you were siding with (by criticizing Americans rather than people engaged
in activities you ostensibly excoriate) did condone such actions, i.e., harming
children.
You, Irene, chose the title ?too painful to talk about,? and then wanted to
talk about this horrible painful act, but when I point out that the enemy we
are fighting condones such ?horrible painful acts? as normative, you have no
criticism for them but merely expand your criticism from the U.S. to Coalition
Forces.
I am sticking to the subject you brought up Irene. I say the normative
(standard) behavior of our military is morally superior to the normative
behavior of our enemies. The last time I said that, you responded with the
note below.
I notice you have criticism for our military for the behavior you thought ?too
painful to talk about,? and which you obviously wanted to talk about. But when
I describe the behavior of our enemy as normatively practicing the behavior you
describe, it apparently really does become too painful to talk about.
Lawrence
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