We've been here, done this dialogue, before. If you're going to justify war
and the loss of American lives and dollars, based on the degree of brutality
of a tyrant, Hussein might not have been biggest fish in the sea. Lots of
bad guys out there. If you're going to justify the war in Iraq and the loss
of American lives and dollars, based on a response to 9/11, Hussein had
nothing to do with that (as has been made eminently clear by now); as a
Ba'athist
and secularist the enmity between him and Bin Laden was ideologically and
pragmatically substantive. How in the world invading Iraq was a response to
the
9;/11 attacks and threat posed by radical Islamisist terrorists is simply not
clear, not only to me, but also to a fair percentage of informed people on
the planet. The evidence that having done so three years ago has actually
provided some measure of support to the terrorist group which instigated 9/11
seems lost on you entirely. If you're going to justify the war and the loss
of
American lives and dollars by calling Sadaam a Militant Islamisist, you're
going to have to go a far ways farther to make that case. You seem to (from
previous posts) consider political ("Pan-Arab") and religious (let's lump
Sunnis, Kurds, and secularists together and assume the Shiites have a foot in
the
boat also) goals and motivations to be of a singular nature. You of all
people would tell anyone that this is far too black & white, lacking so many
nuances, and considering Islam to be a monolith when it simply is so far from
it.
Julie Krueger
========Original Message========
Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: The Strident Voice of Defeat Date: 1/11/2007 3:34:08
P.M. Central Standard Time From: _lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
What does this have to do with anything? Just because we remove one Brutal
Tyrant doesn’t mean that we have to remove them all. This isn’t a
principle. Representatives of Militant Islam attacked us on 9/11. We in
turn
responded to the attack, considering ourselves at war by attacking Afghanistan
and
to use a quote from Thomas Barnett, kindly provided to us by Brian, “We’re
mad as hell after 9/11, we’re not going to take it anymore, and we’re going
to go in and lay a big bang on this part of the world, try to shake things up
by taking down the biggest, baddest actor in the region, and establishing the
possibility of a new order.” This by the way is very much in keeping with
the Islamic sense of honor (see Honor, a History, by James Bowman).
Lawrence
____________________________________
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 1:18 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Strident Voice of Defeat
How many brutal tyrants of how many countries is the U.S. prepared/equipped
to relieve of duty?
Policing the world is a wonderful idea ....if it worked ... if we were God
and knew everything, and innocents were rescued rather than killed....
Please let the brutal tyrants know when the U.S. has achieved omnipresence,
omniscience, and omnipotence.
Julie Krueger
========Original Message========
Subj:
[lit-ideas] Re: The Strident Voice of Defeat
Date:
1/11/2007 2:50:34 P.M. Central Standard Time
From:
_lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx)
To:
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Sent on:
Go back and read what I said about why we invaded Iraq. You want me to
respond to a strawman argument that is easily defeated and has been many
times.
Just a hint for you: Paul Berman a legitimate Liberal has been outraged by
all those claiming to be liberal who didn’t want to get rid of Saddam
Hussein
all along. He doesn’t think anyone who thinks Iraq would be better off if
we left Saddam in place deserves to be called a Liberal. To want to leave a
brutal tyrant in charge of a nation, Berman, stridently reminds us, is not a
liberal position. Liberals don’t believe in keeping brutal dictators in
place.
The Iraqi leadership and the majority of all those in Iraq are not
religious fundamentalists, but we should as I urge understood what these
fundamentalists have argued and will argue if we leave prematurely.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Ursula Stange
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 12:29 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: The Strident Voice of Defeat
LH wrote
...much snipped...
If when we leave, the Islamic Fundamentalists can declare victory, that
is if we don’t leave the present Iraqi government in a very strong
position, then we shall be buying trouble for ourselves. As Barnett
suggests, we shall probably have to go back again. We won’t save money
by leaving prematurely.
-------------------------
Lawrence, I snipped most of your post because it's only this bit I want
to respond to. And I don't know where to begin.
First, don't you think about the fact that the Islamic Fundamentalists
are the Shiites -- the very people the Americans trusted the government
to? The very people who are protecting (if not organizing) the
fundamentalist militias? And now we need to work to secure their
positions? So they can keep the Shiites from declaring victory?
Second, isn't there some sense of morality that should have a place on
this stage? You trashed a country in order to oust its leader. You
didn't just kill his children or ruin his life. You trashed a country.
And now you want to arrange the country so that those in power will
favour you with their favours? What of the ordinary Iraqis -- the
children, the grandmothers, the young brides, the schoolboys? Who cares
to protect them? In the end, you're going to sign off on a
fundamentalist dictatorship in exchange for the peace that passeth oil.
And it will put the women back in burqas and the prostitutes in sand up
to their necks. Wait...isn't this why we chased the Taliban out of
Afghanistan? I'm getting confused again...
Ursula
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