[lit-ideas] Re: The Left Only Exists In Lawrence's Head
- From: "Judith Evans" <judithevans1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:04:27 -0000
I am a socialist. You may if you wish call me a leftist, though
I dislike
the term (I also dislike "rightist"). My father's mother was a
member of the British CP, he was one of the many Communists who,
with other "leftists" and also Jewish people (presumably of
varying
political persuasion) attended Oswald Mosley's meetings to heckle
them.
In London, this coalition beat the fascists off the streets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cable_Street
My mother's sister and her husband were members of the Communist
Party till 1956
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5379586.stm
http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/2006/461/index.html?id=mp30.htm
they knew people, some of whom I met, who fought in the Spanish
Civil War
My parents were I suppose a mix of socialist and liberal.
This is a heritage of which I am proud, but my views are
independent
of it in that my parents deliberately concealed their political
views
from me (to avoid indoctrinating me) albeit my mother's dislike
of
the Communist Party was probably clear from early on.
I see people saying that
> he has it all wrong but they don't provide much corrective and
> obviously take its pejorative as an affront
Some of us have tried to provide a "corrective" to the absurd
caricatures
provided here, perhaps the others have, like me, more or less
despaired
of having any effect at all. (I did manage to convey that Tim
Garton-Ash is not a fan of George Bush, and that
"marxist-liberal" as used by Lawrence was a non-
category.) But, Brian, if you can give your views
(re, e.g., what liberals, social democrats, socialists and
Marxists believe)
it may be possible to address them. It's sometimes difficult
for me to
do that as some of this is a US debate/matter -- e.g., "liberal"
as a
pejorative term -- but, well, I can try. (What I say in this
post is
really too simple. I can recommend reading -- by respected
academic
political and social theorists of varying political persuasions)
if you
wish.
> Is liberal preferable and what would delineate the liberals
from the
> Leftists? I think that liberals and the Left have become
> indistinguishable and that forty years ago a liberal like JFK
were
> for lowering taxes, using the military of the U.S. to fight
evil, and
> believed the U.S. was the greatest nation in the world. How
many
> Leftists does that describe
"Liberal" may connote "lower taxation". Certainly "classical
liberalism"
favours the nightwatchman state and by implication, lower taxes.
But that form of liberalism is only one kind and I'd say, as
would many
others, that there's a form of liberalism (to US writers,
"welfare liberalism", perhaps)
that can certainly favour higher taxes.
>a liberal like JFK
was JFK a liberal? Bobby Kennedy certainly became one. Was
Roosevelt
a liberal? I'd say so. Was George W Bush an isolationist with no
interest
at all in "using the military of the U.S. to fight evil"? (Hint:
the answer's yes.)
were
> for ... using the military of the U.S. to fight evil
have you stopped beating your wife, Brian?
They and
> all their friends and colleagues think much the same about
abortion,
> guns, taxes, foreign policy, and the like and anyone who
doesn't gets
> labeled as neoconservative, religious extremist, ultra-right
winger,
> selfish, fundamentalist.
and perhaps there are US liberals of whom that is true, just as
there most certainly are US "rightists" who label anyone who
does not believe with them a "leftist" and allege that all
"leftists" hate America/are in bed with Al Qaeda and similar
claptrap.
I hope this helps
Judy Evans, Cardiff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian" <cabrian@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:47 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] The Left Only Exists In Lawrence's Head
> I've been noticing the persistence of the list in using quotes
about
> "the Left" and "Leftists" when Lawrence uses it and have seen
it used
> to try and sidestep or ignore his points. I see people saying
that
> he has it all wrong but they don't provide much corrective and
> obviously take its pejorative as an affront. But aren't there
proud
> Leftists on the list? Who here uses the word Leftist to
describe
> themselves?
>
> Is liberal preferable and what would delineate the liberals
from the
> Leftists? I think that liberals and the Left have become
> indistinguishable and that forty years ago a liberal like JFK
were
> for lowering taxes, using the military of the U.S. to fight
evil, and
> believed the U.S. was the greatest nation in the world. How
many
> Leftists does that describe? In Bernard Goldberg's Arrogance
he
> talks about how liberals (in this case Manhattan media elites)
don't
> even think of themselves as liberals but as realists (sound
> familiar?) and so don't use that word to label themselves.
They and
> all their friends and colleagues think much the same about
abortion,
> guns, taxes, foreign policy, and the like and anyone who
doesn't gets
> labeled as neoconservative, religious extremist, ultra-right
winger,
> selfish, fundamentalist.
>
> ~Brian
> Birmingham, AL
>
> On Dec 12, 2006, at 8:53 AM, Irene Cassidy wrote:
>
> > Leftists the way you use it is tantamount to bogieman
>
>
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