[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:59:56 -0800
Cheap shot, Irene. I enlisted in the Marine Corps during the Korean War and
wasn't one of those casualties there either. I don't need to be dead to be
able to study these matters and draw conclusions based on the evidence.
There is not "utter chaos" over there in Iraq. Read the report of the
election. Read of the number who came out to vote. Read of the
construction and the increase in living standards. Listen to the reports of
returning vets. Read the reports on the internet of soldiers and workers
over there. Where is this chaos? It isn't among the Kurds in the North.
It isn't among the Shiites in the South. There are Baathists who have
nothing to lose in the Sunni Triangle. There are Islamists, most of whom
are Sunni coming into the Sunni triangle from other nations. Who writes of
this Chaos? Osama speaks of it and the anti-Americans claim it, but I don't
believe in it. I've seen no evidence.
We didn't "open Pandora's Box." We opposed the Islamists and continue to do
so in the Middle East. Pandora was already after us in the form of the
Islamists but we tried to keep our hands over our eyes, many of us. Shoot,
many of us still are.
Lawrence.
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:33 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
This is completely contrary to what I've heard/read. I guarantee you, I do
not read the NYT. We may have lost relatively few (few because you're not
one of the casualties) but that doesn't change that there is utter chaos
over there where there was once, by comparison, stability. Chaos may breed
stability eventually, but that's a toss of the dice, not good policy. Also,
everything that was happening in Afghanistan with the training camps is now
happening in Iraq and there's not a thing we can do about it. The military
has admitted (Lawrence, are you listening? the military has admitted, not
the NYT, the military) that this war cannot be won militarily. It *has* to
be won, but it can't be won. Plus Iraq is on the brink of, perhaps even in,
civil war. Imagine the French getting in between the Union and the
Confederates in this country, only much worse. All we can hope for is a
democracy. Hope. We o pened Pandora's Box and now we are hoping.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence <mailto:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 11:22:58 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Something to keep in mind is that the War against Saddams regime was
virtually flawless and painless. We lost virtually no one. Now I say that
for effect because when you compare the losses in Iraq against any of out
other wars the casualties are not deserving of mention. I note that you
refer to tens of thousands of troops deployed for year with bulls eyes on
their backs. That is what was feared by some, but the reality is
otherwise. Compare our casualties with other wars and you will see.
Also, the Wilsonian exportation of democracy is the antithesis of
realpolitik. Realpolitik was practiced by Kissenger when he argued we
should learn to get along with the Soviet Union because they were really
going to be around forever.
We are not in a quagmire in Iraq. As soon as the Iraqi troops are up to
speed we can back out. But we do not want to back out until hey are because
that would give a tremendous boost to the Islamists.
Perhaps the war could have been fought in a better way. I dont know. But
it needed (and needs) to be fought. If Iraq becomes a self-sustaining
democracy we will still have Islamists that need to be dealt with, but it
will be easier to do so if we dont have to worry about Iraq.
You ask how we are going to build solidarity to fight the Islamists. A good
start would be for the Media to quit concentrating on body bags and report
a balanced view of what is really going on in Iraq. If our Media makes us
blind to the truth then the people believing them will continue to stumble.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of John McCreery
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:47 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
As I recall from the Phil-Lit days, Lawrence was the one of us who
actually put in the hard work to study Islamic fundamentalism and
develop a persuasive message that when we hear these people talking
about our destruction we ought to take them seriouslyand be under no
illusions that what we hear is only a kind of posturing that will fade
away when people of good will, or more likely a realpolitik based on
let's make a deal, get together to talk things over. This point I
couldn't agree more with what he has said.
But Andy asks the right question when he/she asks "How do we defeat
terrorism?" What is utterly clear from recent history is that our
leaders have been largely clueless. We've heard a lot of cowboy talk
about chasing them down and smoking them out. We have seen an invasion
of a sovereign nation justified not by real attacks but hypothetical
threats that have turned out, as a matter of fact, to have been
unfounded. We have seen a military machine so powerful that it could
destroy the invaded nation's army in a matter of days bog down in the
precisely the murderous quagmire that our military leaders expected
(remember Shinseki talking about the need for hundreds of thousands of
troops and James Webb writing in The New York Times, "Don't do this
Mr. President. We will have to have tens of thousands of troops
deployed for year with bull's eyes on their backs.") Why? Because the
administration's hand-picked proconsul didn't expect an insurgency (L.
Paul Bremer in his new book). Our image abroad has been shot to hell;
our army is bleeding and strained to near breaking point; Osama Bin
Laden is still out there preaching our destruction. And still all we
hear is, "Keep on shopping, the economy needs you. Trust us, we know
what we're doing."
Know what they're doing? My ass. The lack of enthusiasm for this war
has a lot more to do with the public's being lied to and the unkept
promises, utter incompetence and rancid, rampant corruption of the
current administration than it does with pacificism (a decidedly
minority position in today's US of A).
We do need to fight terrorists, and we do need to do a hell of a lot
better job of it. I repeat Andy's question, Lawrence. How are we going
to do that? And how are we going to build the national solidarity that
winning that fight will take?
John
--
John McCreery
The Word Works, Ltd.
55-13-202 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku
Yokohama 220-0006, JAPAN
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