[lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)

One more time Judy, this is what I said:
Comment: My feelings toward Muslim authorities, as opposed to Muslim people, is 
the same as toward any religious group.  I said this and you quoted it.

I think prejudice is not even accurate for what I said I believed or felt.  
Namely, that I just don't want people to control other people's lives that 
don't subscribe to their religion whatever that might be.  I am not prejudging 
anyone.  My my judgments are on what they do or say, especially non-members.  
And now that I have read Baroness Warsi's own words, she was the one that 
called Muslim men throwing eggs at her "idiots."  

It's not just Muslims.  Former President Jimmy Carter quit the Southern Baptist 
Leadership Conference because of their stance that wives must be submissive to 
their husbands.  The Catholic Bishops Conference has intruded itself into the 
health care bill debate here to prevent any woman from getting an abortion, 
regardless of their religion.  I think this is against the US Constitution, in 
as much as it's silent on the issue.  But not silent on government and religion 
being separate.

Veronica Caley


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Judith Evans 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:38 PM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)


        >>>>>>>>>>>

        This was sometime on Jan. 20th, between 9 A.M. and 10 A.M., Eastern 
Standard Time in US.  I believe the time difference between here and London is 
6 hours.

        I think they got their information about the speech from one of the 
London papers.  If you care enough which one, look it up.  I personally don't.  
Since clearly she released it and expected it to be covered.
        <<<<<<<<<<

        I asked because the London papers I read, the ones I checked, to see 
what their extracts from the speech she was to deliver on the evening of the 
20th, said, did not print the full speech. Don't tell me to "look it up", 
Veronica, I was asking about your grounds for suggesting she should tell 
Muslims to shut up about discrimination and prejudice.  And your grounds are, 
what someone said on "the BBC America" (I see it does carry BBC World 
News/World News America) about a forthcoming speech you think he'd seen 
reported in "one of the London papers"... ).

        >>>>>>>>>>
        Judy:
        |s it only OK to oppose discrimination and prejudice against members of 
a group if all its members accept "Western secular values"?  

        Veronica:
        It is OK to do what one can to protect oneself from those who would 
interfere in one's life for no good reason.  
        <<<<<<<<<<

        non sequitur.  Fred Phelps would restrict the lives of many, this 
country has barred him from entry.  Prejudice against Christians is not 
justified therefore, discrimination against all who share his views, may not 
be.  

        >>>>>>>>>>>
        Veronica:


        Referring to the "Baroness" as "this lady" is perfectly acceptable 
here.  Probably because we don't have nobility as such here with titles such as 
this.  Sorry if it offended your English sensibilities.
        >>>>>>>>>>>> 

        ah yes wounding... *I said*, 

        "(Is it OK to say "this lady" when you've been given a name?"

        *I'd previously said* -- giving you a name... -- Sayeeda Warsi.  The 
objection to "this lady" has nothing to do with the fact that Sayeeda Warsi, 
Sayeeda Hussain Warsi, is a life peer, is Baroness/Lady Warsi.   I was 
wondering whether "lady" had mixed connotations in the US, as it does here. But 
clearly not.  

        >>>>>>>>
        Veronica:
        Comment: My feelings toward Muslim authorities, as opposed to Muslim 
people, is the same as toward any religious group.
        <<<<<<<<<<

        comment. Warsi is talking about prejudice and discrimination *against 
Muslims*, she didn't mention the MCB (for example) in her speech. (I assume 
that's what you mean by Muslim authorities.)  So, well, you know, so what?  









        --- On Fri, 21/1/11, Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


          From: Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
          Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)
          To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
          Date: Friday, 21 January, 2011, 21:49


          This was sometime on Jan. 20th, between 9 A.M. and 10 A.M., Eastern 
Standard Time in US.  I believe the time difference between here and London is 
6 hours.

          I think they got their information about the speech from one of the 
London papers.  If you care enough which one, look it up.  I personally don't.  
Since clearly she released it and expected it to be covered.

          Judy:
          |s it only OK to oppose discrimination and prejudice against members 
of a group if all its members accept "Western secular values"?  

          It is OK to do what one can to protect oneself from those who would 
interfere in one's life for no good reason.  As in the imam I cited who 
definitely is not in favor of free speech.  I also believe that when one 
immigrates, one ought to do as much as possible to assimilate into the new 
culture.  That has not been happening here as with previous waves of 
immigrants.  That doesn't mean to take it all as is, but it does mean that one 
ought not to expect the new culture to adapt to them.  

          Referring to the "Baroness" as "this lady" is perfectly acceptable 
here.  Probably because we don't have nobility as such here with titles such as 
this.  Sorry if it offended your English sensibilities.

          Comment: My feelings toward Muslim authorities, as opposed to Muslim 
people, is the same as toward any religious group.  With one or two exceptions 
(Unitarians, Quakers) they tend to be authoritarian and misogynistic.
          And they don't want to control their flock only.  They want to 
control  everyone.

          Veronica




            ----- Original Message ----- 
            From: Judith Evans 
            To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
            Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 10:27 AM
            Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)


                  >>>>>>>>>>>
                  The BBC America had a discussion about this lady and her 
comments.  The one I liked the best was the man who said that she ought not to 
have spoken about anti-Muslim prejudice.  Given her position, she ought to have 
spoken out about how one of the causes of prejudice against Muslims is their 
refusal to except Western secular values.  
                  <<<<<<<<<<<<

                  when exactly was this?  could it have been before she made 
the speech?  Was he relying on the leaked excerpts printed in the right wing 
press?  Had he even read those? Have you?     

                  (Is it OK to say "this lady" when you've been given a name?  
-- I suppose where you are, "this lady" may be complimentary.)

                  speech here:


                  
http://www.sayeedawarsi.com/2011/01/university-of-leicester-sir-sigmund-sternberg-lecture/

                  --- On Fri, 21/1/11, Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:


                    From: Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
                    Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)
                    To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                    Date: Friday, 21 January, 2011, 14:53


                    The BBC America had a discussion about this lady and her 
comments.  The one I liked the best was the man who said that she ought not to 
have spoken about anti-Muslim prejudice.  Given her position, she ought to have 
spoken out about how one of the causes of prejudice against Muslims is their 
refusal to except Western secular values.  His contention, familiar to us all, 
that we all accept people making fun of, and disrespecting the religion of, 
anyone and everyone.  Muslims generally won't accept this.

                    The performer M&M was to perform in Detroit a few years 
ago.  Because of the vulgarity, the city forbid it.  He sued, won and the city 
had to pay $300,000 restitution.  The reaction of a very moderate imam  of a 
mosque near Detroit was: the show is shameful, the city out to have prohibited 
it and no fine ought to have been levied.

                    I recently finished a book called, "Why I Am Not A Muslim." 
 Among the things I learned: that people who call the prophet a pedophile do so 
because he married a nine year old girl, that he evidently was a bandit who 
shared the spoils, and that he was killing Jews or driving them off the land as 
early as the seventh century.

                    Re Eric's comment on stoning, if you haven't seen it, two 
recommendations: the Christian method is in a film called  "Zorba the Greek."  
The Muslim version, in a film made by an Iranian, is called, "The Story of 
Soraya M"
                    Zorba is also a book.  I recommend you see the film.  Also 
that you don't eat before doing so.

                    Currently, there is a concern in Western countries that 
some Muslims are taking daughters to the home country for circumcision and 
early marriage.  I have read about this issue being of concern in the U.S. and 
Canada

                    Veronica


                      ----- Original Message ----- 
                      From: Judith Evans 
                      To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
                      Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 12:42 PM
                      Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)


                            I haven't read the speech, I did know about it. 

                            "Baroness Warsi will say anti-Muslim prejudice is 
now seen by many Britons as normal and uncontroversial"


                            I'd say there's a lot of truth in this, I'd also 
say Sayeeda Warsi is not likely to exaggerate the extent and degree of 
prejudice. Just one thing

                            "She told the 2009 Conservative Party conference 
that anti-Muslim hatred had become Britain's last socially acceptable form of 
bigotry"

                            There's another one, anti-gypsy prejudice.

                            I have no idea how all this compares with the US

                            btw sorry distracted by some terrific breaking 
news, the Labour Shadow Chancellor's resigned and Ed Balls, who should have got 
the job in the first place, is taking over.  Prepare to see Tory ministers 
dismembered!!!!

                            Judy Evans, Cardiff

                            --- On Thu, 20/1/11, Julie C <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx> 
wrote:


                              From: Julie C <juliereneb@xxxxxxxxx>
                              Subject: [lit-ideas] Muslim Prejudice (Judy?)
                              To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
                              Date: Thursday, 20 January, 2011, 17:09


                              http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12235237  
Reactions anyone?  Judy?



                              Julie Krueger

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