[lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:03:33 -0800
Andreas.
To say "Muslim's arrive" is quite correct. I don't know what you mean by
suggesting it isn't.
As to saying Arabs converted to Islam, that could be misleading because the
Arabs created Islam. Islam and the Arabs were identical for several
generations. You find many Arabs today thinking they are first class
Muslims while those of other races are second class, because Islam began
with them.
Israel, if they were as strict about following their Bible as the Islamists
are who follow the Islamist version of the Koran would be interested in much
more land than they've settled for, for God gave it to Abraham. Abraham
couldn't move in right away because the sins of the Amorites were not yet
full. A nation was built from the sons of Jacob while in captivity in Egypt
and by that time the land was ready to be occupied. God left people in the
land so wild animals wouldn't overrun it, but these people were to be
conquered. Intermarriage with them was forbidden. But according to the
Bible, the land did belong to the Children of Abraham, and it belonged to
the children of Jacob even though some tribes needed to be driven out.
You write, "Lawrence: get this clearly: they weren't fighting to defend
their land. They massacred, terrorized, and raped to get land," and quote
Benny Morris as your authority. I've read several books about this period
but not one that substantiates your claim, but you are right to guess I
haven't read Benny Morris. I've read reviews, and this far left revisionist
historian isn't high on my list of authors to read. As near as I can tell
he is doing for Israel what Ward Churchill is doing for America.
While I haven't read Morris, I did subscribe to the Middle East Quarterly
for a few years and have great respect for their positions and the articles
that appear there. Here is an article about Benny Morris from the MEQ:
http://www.meforum.org/article/466
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andreas Ramos
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 3:10 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Link to "Mohammed" cartoons
From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> I should have said the Jews have lived in Palestine
> since the Exodus. The Muslims if you are interested didn't get there
until
> around the 7th century A.D., I've got the date somewhere if anyone is
> interesting.
The Muslims didn't "arrive" because Islam is a religion, not a race. The
Arabs converted to
Islam.
Lawrence, you have a remarkable ability to see only what you want to see.
You read history
books, but only those that support your preconceptions. You don't question
the author's
intentions. If an author ignores something, you ignore it as well. You won't
read other
books on the issue.
Look up Exodus 23:22-33. It's in Torah and the Bible. It states that there
were many tribes
in the area; the invaders slaughtered them. Israel has a right to the land?
Yes, but only
right by conquest. It wasn't their land orginally. Torah clearly states
that.
As for modern Israel, that's a very complex story. It's complex because the
political
intentions have changed repeatedly in the last 150 years or so, and some of
these ideas are
out of fashion now. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel
The Holocaust complexifies the issues almost infinitely. Although ignored at
first, Israel
later in the 50s realized the Holocaust could be used for political reasons.
By aligning
Israel with the Holocaust, Israel became the victim. Thus anything is
justified, because
Israel can not be criticized.
> I admire the Jews because they are willing to fight for their land. They
don't whimper,
> they don't whine and they are damned fine warriors.
Benny Morris, an Israeli professor of history, has been looking at how the
modern state of
Israel was founded. He isn't a critic by any means; he is a strong
supportive of the state.
He has written about the systematic use of atrocities, the terrorism, rape,
the slaughter of
entire villages, and so on by Israeli army to drive out Arabs. "Damned fine
warriors"
indeed. This is called "Transferism" (transfer the Arabs out of Israel, or
drive them out).
This strategy was not a "few bad apples"; it came from Ben-Gurion himself
and was policy.
Seize the land, drive out the inhabitants, take it over.
Morris, and other hardline Israeli, defend Transferism: as he says, without
it, there would
be no Israel. Lawrence: get this clearly: they weren't fighting to defend
their land. They
massacred, terrorized, and raped to get land.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=380986&contrassID=2&su
bContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
yrs,
andreas
www.andreas.com
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