[lit-ideas] Re: K a techinical pointRe: Re: Valid-Some Thoughts

I must have inadvertently given "palma" the wrong impression. Chomsky's original
position on rules, as per *Cartesian Linguistics* and other works, fell afoul of
Wittgenstein's painstaking analyses of the social and public dimension of rules
in the *PI* and the *Blue* and *Brown* Books. 

The idea of rules being innate or constitutive of the "deep structure" of the
mind/brain or some Language Acquisition Device was, I believe, thoroughly
trounced and discredited by a number of Wittgensteinian philosophers. Most
notably by Baker and Hacker in their excellent *Language: sense and nonsense*.
My linguist friends inform me that Chomsky has recently recanted on any version
of a thesis on a universal, deep rule-governed grammar or structure of the
mind.

Do take a look at Baker and Hacker's text, and let us know what you think.

Walter O.
MUN



Quoting palma@xxxxxxxx:

> Certainly. I would be appreciative if you produce a reference, a source,
> or what grounds your claim that Chomsky holds the view that rules are
> public.
> I am here assuming you talk about linguistic rules.
> The reason this is puzzling is that they are not public at all (in fact
> it is rather a pain in several parts of the body and of the mind to find
> out what they are, e.g. rules of c-government are, in my view, still
> poorly understood)
> 
> 
> bets regards and happy new year to the entire list-ship and yourself
> 
> On
> Wed, 26 Dec 2007 wokshevs@xxxxxx wrote:
> 
> > No, I wouldn't mind "just explaining" at all. But I must say I am equally
> as
> > mildly puzzled as the content and tone of your message conveys.
> >
> > Could the tone in which a speech act is expressed actually contribute to
> its
> > semantic/locutionary content? Is this not a matter of the "music" of the
> > question? "Would you mind just explaining ..." This speech act should be in
> a
> > teacher's guide to the structure and dynamics of questioning. Imagine a
> teacher
> > were to say this subsequent to a student's expression of her observations
> or
> > criticisms.
> >
> > Think of the myriad ways in which a student can ask a question. Essential
> here
> > is the task of identifying the motive behind the question and the purpose
> in
> > asking it. It is only after the teacher has deconstructed the "way" of the
> > question that a pedagogically effective answer can be designed.)
> >
> >
> > But I digress, to be sure. I'm not very clear on what it is precisely you
> are
> > asking. Could you, perhaps, provide some background to your query which
> would
> > help to situate the direction and ensure the relevance of my reply?
> >
> > Walter O.
> > MUN
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Quoting palma@xxxxxxxx:
> >
> > > I am midly puzzled. would you mind just explaining (or else provide
> > > sources) fro your claim that "even Chomsky concurs" (finally etc.)
> > > to what are you making reference?
> > > thank you
> > >
> > > palma a
> > >
> > > On Wed,
> > > 26 Dec 2007 wokshevs@xxxxxx wrote:
> > >
> > > > Turkey and nog may well instill (and even distill) the idea that
> > > dictionaries
> > > > are of some philosophical worth, but one would hope that a restful
> night's
> > > > sleep would succeed in disabusing one of that idea.
> > > >
> > > > Clearly, no discipline or paradigm of disciplinary research owns the
> > > copyright
> > > > to the concept of validity. Each sense possesses its own
> > > disciplinary-specific
> > > > criteria of "validity." I submit, however, that the logical sense of
> > > validity
> > > > can legitimately be said to be foundational, i.e. possess priority
> over
> > > > "procedural" senses, in that all other versions of the concept cited
> by
> > > John
> > > > are governed by the specifically logical norms of validity for the
> > > > intelligibility and cogency of claims made. The converse cannot validly
> be
> > > > maintained.
> > > >
> > > > Regarding the quotation from W: I'm not clear on the points John McC
> wishes
> > > to
> > > > extract from these remarks and how they are relevant to the claims he
> > > makes.
> > > > Rules are public and social. (Even Chomsky now concurs, finally.)
> > > Typically, we
> > > > each know when we're (not) abiding by a rule and when others are (are
> not).
> > > If
> > > > this were false, then the issuance of traffic tickets would be
> seriously
> > > > imperilled. W. understood that, surely. (What is the specific view that
> W
> > > is
> > > > addressing in this passage?)
> > > >
> > > > Walter O.
> > > > Duck "Orawnge" Heaven
> > > > St. John's, NL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting John McCreery <john.mccreery@xxxxxxxxx>:
> > > >
> > > > > A Google search for "define: Valid" yields the following result.
> > > > > -----
> > > > >
> > > > > Definitions of *valid* on the Web:
> > > > >
> > > > >    - well grounded in logic or truth or having legal force; "a valid
> > > > >    inference"; "a valid argument"; "a valid contract"; "a valid
> license"
> > > > >    - still legally acceptable; "the license is still valid"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=0&oi=define&q=http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn%3Fs%3Dvalid&usg=AFQjCNG8JbP6yppNRxqupqXtkvVmOpzUSw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - In logic, the form of an argument is valid precisely if it
> cannot
> > > > >    lead from true premises to a false conclusion. An argument is said
> to
> > > be
> > > > >    valid if, in every model in which all premises are true, the
> > > conclusion
> > > > > is
> > > > >    true. ...
> > > > >    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=2&oi=define&q=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valid&usg=AFQjCNE4N8cW_r3wrOtnL6DYuOx079Lbrg>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Legally binding; authorized.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.titlecorockies.com/dictionary_v.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=3&oi=define&q=http://www.titlecorockies.com/dictionary_v.htm&usg=AFQjCNE8kGs0VeC3KBMHhYpqacOw2dWkrg>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Time at which the weather data was received. In the case of a
> > > > >    forecast, time at which the forecast applies.
> > > > >    www.intellicast.com/Help/Glossary.aspx
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=4&oi=define&q=http://www.intellicast.com/Help/Glossary.aspx&usg=AFQjCNFiQOkTb_xRqJ3dVgJw4FOKlfP1rw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Of taxonomic names and epithets: Published in accordance with
> > > > >    several articles of the Code of Nomenclature; such names may be
> > > > > legitimate
> > > > >    or illegitimate. (22)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.plantpath.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_V.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=5&oi=define&q=http://www.plantpath.cornell.edu/glossary/Defs_V.htm&usg=AFQjCNHAHPhk5RT_lWFVKpBk57eF1fJ5fw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Certificate of Insurance valid
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
apps01.metrokc.gov/www6/ddes/scripts/perminfo.cfm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=6&oi=define&q=http://apps01.metrokc.gov/www6/ddes/scripts/perminfo.cfm%3Frpt%3D2&usg=AFQjCNFAmZyqNC3hkOZT5SuFikbuU-Xy4w>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - An XML document that is verified correct against a DTD or
> schema.
> > > > >    Create a Valid XML Document valid glossary entry
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
webdesign.about.com/library/weekly/aa070102a.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=7&oi=define&q=http://webdesign.about.com/library/weekly/aa070102a.htm&usg=AFQjCNFDBjCV2_z4O6aEgF9q55lrYPPOGA>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Based on proper procedures, a valid approach will lead to the
> > > > >    correct solution of a problem.
> > > > >    www.numbernut.com/glossary/v.shtml
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=8&oi=define&q=http://www.numbernut.com/glossary/v.shtml&usg=AFQjCNH9HyMzcd4PUzbi_A6Iw13OEBdBkw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Produces or relates to the intended results or goal.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.nmlites.org/standards/language/glossary.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=9&oi=define&q=http://www.nmlites.org/standards/language/glossary.html&usg=AFQjCNE2C2f3Pr2FsYJ3v20egWX4JcU6mQ>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - A valid proof (or statement) is one in which all the arguments
> > > > >    leading up to it are correct within the logie of the system being
> > > used.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
ddi.cs.uni-potsdam.de/Lehre/TuringLectures/MathNotions.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=10&oi=define&q=http://ddi.cs.uni-potsdam.de/Lehre/TuringLectures/MathNotions.htm&usg=AFQjCNHWjiIO7orUx2dwslUXjU4ffXy3rw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Being complete, accurate and reasonable 113 .
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.usq.edu.au/planstats/Docs/GlossaryTerms.doc<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=11&oi=define&q=http://www.usq.edu.au/planstats/Docs/GlossaryTerms.doc&usg=AFQjCNE_ig2MsQGrSmCWxrjD13-TXyNCLQ>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - a condition that is legally sufficient; that will be upheld by
> the
> > > > >    courts.
> > > > >    www.tdsf.com/foregloss.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=12&oi=define&q=http://www.tdsf.com/foregloss.htm&usg=AFQjCNHdodCyHbo8gtlBIzms_p2AUauWMg>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Having legal force. This means that if a property title is
> valid
> > > > >    then it is effective or binding by law.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.canequity.com/mortgage-resources/<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=13&oi=define&q=http://www.canequity.com/mortgage-resources/%3Fv%2BD&usg=AFQjCNHtaal2MCvsOwdvIyr8Fb9p8xkESA>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Term of appraisal applying to arguments. An argument is valid
> if
> > > the
> > > > >    truth of the premise(s) really does warrant us in asserting the
> truth
> > > of
> > > > > the
> > > > >    conclusion. ...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.abdn.ac.uk/philosophy/guide/glossary.shtml<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=14&oi=define&q=http://www.abdn.ac.uk/philosophy/guide/glossary.shtml&usg=AFQjCNF2bAusgvclwAzzKl4qYx-Fwl0Yhg>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - "valid" means issued in accordance with the applicable law or
> > > > >    validated under section 97.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.canlii.org/ca/sta/b-1.01/sec81.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=15&oi=define&q=http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/b-1.01/sec81.html&usg=AFQjCNFhXLUy5ik2dhyz1sAarbvyMtMLfA>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Research is valid if it represents the world as it really is.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.barrycomp.com/bhs/guide/key_terms.html<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=16&oi=define&q=http://www.barrycomp.com/bhs/guide/key_terms.html&usg=AFQjCNFgY-9dtvNerRjFj7FJjP_jW8emuQ>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - A binding situation that is authorized and enforceable by law.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
centapoint.com/Support/Glossary_Pages/V_Page.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=17&oi=define&q=http://centapoint.com/Support/Glossary_Pages/V_Page.htm&usg=AFQjCNEq933DTbGYRa25WEQBAcGlAHVLQQ>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - The Quotation is valid for 30 days only.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.a1-plating.co.uk/index_files/Page707.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=18&oi=define&q=http://www.a1-plating.co.uk/index_files/Page707.htm&usg=AFQjCNHG5X9QW2b6OqUTLN1NHOpZ_iFpvw>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - Having force or binding force; legally sufficient and authorized
> by
> > > > >    law.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.realestatemanitoba.com/glossary.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=19&oi=define&q=http://www.realestatemanitoba.com/glossary.htm&usg=AFQjCNGgmaKOHsawbP7gEFbDgzh8qMjaRg>
> > > > >
> > > > >    - In logic, the term used to indicate that the conclusion follows
> > > > >    deductively and necessarily from the propositions of an argument,
> > > > > although
> > > > >    the conclusion may not be true. A property of arguments: being
> such
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > >    truth of the premises guarantees or necessitates the truth of the
> > > > >    conclusion.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
www.rodsmith.org.uk/philosophy%20glossary/philosophy%20glossaryU-Z.htm<http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&start=20&oi=define&q=http://www.rodsmith.org.uk/philosophy%2520glossary/philosophy%2520glossaryU-Z.htm&usg=AFQjCNFV6NJ44mKuRK_2sQQpEa3CCBP-uA>
> > > > >
> > > > > -----------------
> > > > > As Robert Paul points out logic provides an exceptionally clear and
> > > definite
> > > > > description of validity, which appears in both the third and the last
> of
> > > the
> > > > > definitions to which Google points us.
> > > > >
> > > > > One can, of course, simply assert that the logical definition of
> validity
> > > is
> > > > > the only one that counts and, going further, regard this definition
> of
> > > > > validity as an absolute dividing line between logic and the
> illogical.
> > > This
> > > > > is, for example, the force as I read them of   palma's remarks in re
> > > > > Bourdieu.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alternatively, we might begin by observing that the majority of
> these
> > > > > definitions evoke the notion that validity is, in essence, a
> procedural
> > > > > issue. There exists a procedure P, governed by a set of rules {r1,
> > > r2....},
> > > > > such that for a given set of initial conditions {c1, c2....}, there
> is
> > > some
> > > > > outcome that satisfies the rules in question. The use of the
> procedure
> > > may
> > > > > then be described as valid. This model applies equally to logic and
> to
> > > the
> > > > > other  legal and scientific usages mentioned in our list.
> > > > >
> > > > > So long as we speak hypothetically, we evade, however, the problems
> that
> > > > > confront interpretations or explanations in terms of rules in
> particular
> > > > > (concrete? empirical?) situations--the problems identified by
> > > Wittgenstein
> > > > > in the following passage from _Philosophical Investigations_ cited
> by
> > > > > Bourdieu in _The Logic of Practice_:
> > > > >
> > > > > "What do I call 'the rule by which he proceeds'??The hypothesis that
> > > > > satisfactorily describes his use of words, which we observe; or the
> rule
> > > > > which he looks up when he uses signs; or the one which he gives us
> in
> > > reply
> > > > > when we ask what his rule is? --But if observation does not enable us
> to
> > > see
> > > > > any clear rule, and the question brings none to light?--For he did
> > > indeed
> > > > > give me a definition when I asked him what he understood by 'N', but
> he
> > > was
> > > > > prepared to withdraw and alter it. So how am I to determine the rule
> > > > > according to which he is playing? He does not know it himself. -- Or,
> to
> > > ask
> > > > > a better question: What meaning is the expression 'the rule by which
> he
> > > > > proceeds' supposed to have left to it here?"
> > > > >
> > > > > If we can neither infer the rules from our own observations or trust
> what
> > > we
> > > > > are told are the rules, what do we do then?
> > > > >
> > > > > John (pleasantly muddled by turkey and nog as Christmas Day moves
> toward
> > > > > midnight in Japan)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > John McCreery
> > > > > The Word Works, Ltd., Yokohama, JAPAN
> > > > > Tel. +81-45-314-9324
> > > > > http://www.wordworks.jp/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > > > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> > > >
> > >
> > > off address: #201 West Building, Philosophy, Duke University
> > > box 90743, Durham, NC 27708
> > > home ph#: [1] 9196881856
> > > cellph#: [1[] 9195997065 (voicemail is available on said numbers)
> > > email palma@xxxxxxxx
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
> > > digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> off address: #201 West Building, Philosophy, Duke University
> box 90743, Durham, NC 27708
> home ph#: [1] 9196881856
> cellph#: [1[] 9195997065 (voicemail is available on said numbers)
> email palma@xxxxxxxx
> 
> 



------------------------------------------------------------------
To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off,
digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html

Other related posts: