[lit-ideas] Re: Islamism and Islam
- From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:12:19 -0800
Marlena,
I think you are underrating Hirsi Ali who is fighting for all the things
Liberals used to fight for. She is advocating nothing that is inconsistent
with a traditional Western Liberal Viewpoint. She would say about your
Progressive Islam site that Islamic theologians would declare that these
progressives have left Islam. No traditional or Islamist Muslim would make
such arguments. Article 7 for example is one of the main rights she has been
fighting, i.e., women's rights. I suspect she would think Progressive Islam
would be a good thing if it could gain some legitimacy. How many
Progressives are there in the Middle East? I'll bet not many. I'm tempted
to say "not any," because this looks like something cooked up in Europe.
And no that is not "the point - that there is NOT one definition of Islamic
belief." That's taking the tangential quibble far too far. I argued that
the term Islamist has become the technical term for describing the ideology
advanced by Sayyid Qutb, Khomeini and a few others. It is against Islamists
that we are fighting. Beyond that, I said that while I had heard of such
things as "Moderate Islamists," I believed such expressions were oxymorons,
or words to that effect. I invited discussion, but only manage to get a few
insults.
I continue to doubt that there are "Moderate Islamists." This is a doubt,
and I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I quoted a source found in a Wikipedia
article; a very well-written article entitled "The West Muslim Allies" by
Andrew Bostom. It addresses these very issues. He sites Ibn Warraq's "own
brilliant essays, and poignant, harrowing testimonials from other ex-Muslim
'apostates," to be found in his Why I am Not a Muslim. He also sites the
Dutch Liberal Party member, the Somalia-born Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She goes
beyond my doubts and argues that there are no serious distinctions between
any form of Islam in any of the areas that impact Western Liberalism. Islam
in all its forms is utterly incompatible with Western Liberalism.
Hirsi Ali is quite a trouble maker. How can you not like her? Her she is
being criticized by the Dutch Prime Minister:
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19
<http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=2
7556&name=Dutch+PM+has+'no+use'+for+Hirsi+Ali's+cartoon+views>
&story_id=27556&name=Dutch+PM+has+'no+use'+for+Hirsi+Ali's+cartoon+views
Lawrence
_____
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eternitytime1@xxxxxxx
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:26 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Islamism and Islam
Hi,
Perhaps she needs to go look at the Constitution proposed by the Progressive
Islam site?
See
http://progressivemuslims.org/constitution.htm
The link to the Cairo Universal Declaration of Human Rights is gone...but
does point one to http://www.faithfreedom.org which reminds me of the sites
put together by those who have been horribly hurt by Christianity's
fundamentalist sites. (there is incredibly wounding by *any* of those
fundamentalist types, I think...)
And, isn't that the point--that there is NOT one definition of Islamic
belief--that it might be most helpful to find out which school of thought
that someone (anyone) who states that he/she is of a particular religious
tradition is a part of--or even, perhaps, to ask on an even more
definititive basis, where that person's religious belief makes/causes
him/her to stand on a particular issue (or, even-if it does-or if it is the
cultural or lineage part of the religious tradition which causes that
belief--like, perhaps, some of my secular Jewish friends and their feelings
about Israel--comes not from their religious feelings or lack of--but from
their thinking that Jews have been persecuted so and needed a homeland...and
many Christians believe the same thing NOT because they think that only by
having Israel will Jesus return--but for the very same *secular* and
*pragmatic* sorts of reasons. And, some Muslims no doubt can see/understand
that point of view, too--though because of their secular/cultural
background, they might be better able to handle that viewpoint if there was
not the issue of the Palestinian refugees... )
http://www.free-minds.org/articles/politics/democracy.htm
Talks about democracy within the Koran and Islam. And, how it is NOT
incompatible--and that website (written by those in Islam for those in
Islam, primarily) -- talks ALOT of how the extra teachings added to the
Koran have totally caused belief systems to walk away from what is (in their
minds) truly what Islam and the Koran teach.
The website is very interesting--and reminds me a lot of the same type of
discussion and analytical thought going on within Christianity--those who
are fully immersed within it, still. (not the show up on Sunday types--but
those who are dissecting Scripture and thinking and talking about it for
various reasons...and looking at implications, etc.)
I really recommend (and echo) that of Omar -- that those who think that
there is only ONE Islamic viewpoint by those who really believe within Islam
go take a look at those two sites.
This is so much like the boxes that anyone who would like to call
him/herself a Christian gets placed in--and how it does not matter how hard
you try to point out that there IS a difference--all really do get painted
with the same brush...
Clean the brush and then notice that each box is a different color...
Take a look at some of the other writings by those who are writing...
Please.
Best,
Marlena
watching Star Wars yet again...
In a message dated 2/25/2006 7:51:55 P.M. Central Standard Time,
lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx writes:
"Combining lucid intellectual and experience-based understanding with rare
valor, uncompromised by politically correct apologetics, Hirsi Ali has made
explicit the threat that orthodox Islam (as she stated, "The problem is the
Prophet and the Koran" )-not "Islamism"-poses to the Western civilization
she has come to cherish, and staunchly defend. She identifies the core
Muslim texts-Koran, hadith, sira-their codification into Islamic Law (i.e.,
Shari'a), and the orthodox interpretation of this sacralized literature by
seminal Muslim jurists-noting Ibn
<http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4495&search=bostom>
Taymiyya's "pure" Islamic exegesis, specifically-as being responsible for
the incompatibility between Islamic and Western values. In particular, the
principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
<http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/lang/eng.htm> , versus the Shari'a-based
Universal <http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/ohmyrus30816.htm>
Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (Cairo, 1990).
Other related posts:
