[lit-ideas] Re: Is torture wrong by definition?

Using individuals to reflect the group may not be effective.  Using the
group to reflect the individual can be effective.  The U.S., for example,
can lead by example.  Had we not said, oh, goody! now we can [act like
barbarians] by invading another country because a terrorist group gave us
an excuse, there would be a lot more civilization in the world.  Of course,
I'll never convince you that one gets to a state of not having war by not
having war.  If the U.S. were fundamentally civilized, we would not have as
our economic backbone a weapons economy.  It's off the subject but it
isn't, because civilization, by any definition, is anywhere from difficult
to impossible without safety and stability.  Paint those pretty pictures
and they will be destroyed or hidden until the fighting stops.  This is not
to be confused with pacifism.  That's something else.



> [Original Message]
> From: Paul Stone <pas@xxxxxxxx>
> To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 4/6/2006 9:55:46 AM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Is torture wrong by definition?
>
> At 09:44 AM 4/6/2006, you wrote:
> >There's an expression in the psychological community that says, behavior
> >first, feelings will follow.  If we behave in a civilized way, which is
to
> >say never allow torture of any kind, then the civilization *has* to
follow.
> >There is no way that one can say let's act like barbarians and
civilization
> >will follow.
>
> Well until the barbarians are all dealt with, we can't turn the other
cheek 
> either.
> Isn't it peculiar how all these great people (MLK, Ghandi) who actually 
> live their live with incredible ideals and
> who preach the love of peace etc. are assassinated? "You want peace? We 
> have to KILL YOU!" The height of irony don't you think?
>
> Maybe we should start killing the would-be assassins first before we let 
> all the good people become victims.
>
> Once again, it's a fundamental difference in opinions here. I will never 
> convince anyone who is fundamentally against torture, murder, killing, 
> violence that it is EVER necessary, just as that person can never
convince 
> me I'm wrong that in some cases, it's okay.
>
> Paul
>
> ##########
> Paul Stone
> pas@xxxxxxxx
> Kingsville, ON, Canada 
>
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