[lit-ideas] Re: Is it any wonder...

Well Lawrence, it certainly seems like I hit the right button there.

"I think you mean Goebbels and not Goering."

No, it was definitely Goering who said, during the Nuremberg Trials: "It is 
natural for the common people to not want war but, after all, it is a country's 
leaders who determine policy and it is an easy matter to convince the people. 
Whether they have a voice or not, the people can always be made to do what 
their rulers wish. It's easy. All you have to do is tell them they are under 
attack and condemn the pacifists for their lack of patriotism and for exposing 
their country to danger"

'Simon, would you repeat that theory if you didn't think it plausible?  I 
wouldn't.  I think it absurd and so would never repeat it unless I prefaced it 
with something like, "as an example of some of the most hateful unbelievable 
nonsense being propagated by the Islamists and their Leftists Fellow travelers, 
they are asking, is it any wonder . . . " But you didn't feel a need to 
distance yourself from it.  Only when I point that out do you lightly declare, 
"I only raised the subject." '

Plausibility is not the same as belief Lawrence. 

Is it plausible that 9/11 was a conspiracy? Is it plausible that a select few 
amongst the ruling elite in the US so arranged matters that it allowed three 
planes to fly into buildings, killing more than three thousand innocent people? 

Yes, is my answer. It is plausible that such a thing might happen if enough 
could be gained from such an act that would, in the eyes of that elite, justify 
that act. 

Do I believe it? I'm not sure since, as far as I've seen, the evidence is only 
sufficient to place severe doubt on the official version of events. And that's 
the problem, that's what Paul is pointing out. People are asking why they 
haven't been shown this missing evidence. They're asking what there is to hide. 
Conversely, people like your self are shouting back that any person who asks 
such a question is siding with 'the enemy'. Is that a defence or is it, as 
Goering said, a matter of condemning those people as pacifists, or in your 
terms denouncing them as 'leftist fellow travellers'.

Which allows you to ask: ' Is it any wonder I suspect certain people of being 
in bed with the enemy when they speak as though they dressed in the same 
closet?' 

No, there's no wonder about that at all. You are behaving exactly as Goering 
would suggest. The unfortunate aspect is that you are being the dupe.

'But perhaps you didn't know you were repeating the propaganda of the Islamists'

No, I'm bringing up the concerns US citizens have about the many inconcistences 
there are about the official version of 9/11. Do you seriously think the 
Islamists would say - have said - that 9/11 was a conspiracy. Would bin Laden 
really say: 'Hey it wasn't me after all. I had nothing to do with it. Actually 
it was a conspiracy involving the upper eschelons of the Bush Administration.' 
Has he said that Lawrence?

Of course he hasn't. What would that serve for his agenda? Get real.

'Europe hated us and then we mistrusted them...Their hatred is unabated and 
irrational.  It smacks of resentment.  They too twist things.'

In my estimation, the closest word you have is resentment, yet that overstates 
European attitudes. From my perspective, Europeans dislike American ego. That, 
in the normal play of things, is as far as it goes. We dislike the fact that in 
sport, the US always like to win, that they'll push the laws so that they do. 
That's the standard level of European dislike regarding the US. 

Yet you're bandying words like unabated hatred. Lawrence, that simply isn't 
true. Of course, Bush and his administration are a different matter, but most 
Europeans are sensible enough to seperate the average citizen and the wider 
society from those that rule them. That's applied since Vietnam and still 
applies now. Are Europeans jealous of US society? No, they're proud of European 
history.

'Have I started a propaganda campaign here on Lit-Ideas by my search for 
Moderate Muslims?  I have been searching and the only ones I've found have been 
in Europe or America, mostly the latter.  So in the Middle East the moderates 
(assuming they exist) either agree with the Islamists, 2) are too intimidated 
to speak out, or 3) don't care.  Let me hear some Moderate Muslims speaking 
from the Middle East so I can tell.  In the meantime I continue to doubt their 
existence.'

You my not have started the propaganda Lawrence, but you are certainly 
furthering it by posting articles from commentators who are advocating war 
against Islam. There is a maxim in archaeology that says: absence of evidence 
is not evidence of absence. In this context, just because you can't find 
moderate muslims doesn't mean there aren't any. In fact of course, you just 
haven't looked. How about the Muslim Council of Great Britain, which said, 
following the London bombings that it, "utterly condemns today's indiscriminate 
acts of terror in London. These evil deeds make victims of us all. It is our 
humanity that must bring us shoulder to shoulder to condemn, to oppose and to 
overcome those who would spread fear, hatred and death."

And finally on 'the clamour to restrict illegal immigration', your missing the 
point. For years, the US has done nothing about its illegal immigratants excect 
make minor efforts to stop them coming in. Now of course, an effort is being 
made, but only to satisfy a dissatisfied electorate. I found it amazing that 
there was outrage that with so many immigrants protesting and not going to work 
it was going to damage the US economy. Why would that be? Was it because the 
economy depends on those immigrants?

No doubt you'll have much to say in your reply Lawrence, but I'd like to 
suggest an excercise for you. It involves reading. Go and visit 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ read a few articles. Expose yourself to the 
conspiracists.  Read something that goes against your viewpoint, then come back 
and discuss the specifics rather than denouncing anyone who doesn't agree with 
you as enemies.

Alternatively you could address Paul's concerns since he didn't have his tongue 
in his cheek.

Simon
With apologies for the mix of colours and fonts in this post. 






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