[lit-ideas] Re: Iraq and news

I know all about the Iran thing, and I'm suspicious re. NK, but where do  you 
get Syria from?  I haven't heard the drumbeats...
 
Julie Krueger
========Original  Message========     Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: Iraq and news  
Date: 1/29/05 8:20:30 P.M. Central Standard Time  From: _andreas@xxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:andreas@xxxxxxxxxxx)   To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent on:    
> Disagree. It is unfair of Andreas to offer no  constructive solutions in
> the context of this discussion.

No, it  is not the context of this discussion as to whether I should offer a  
constructive 
solution.

The issue here is Phil's statement that Iraq  has improved and is headed in 
the right 
direction. I am asking Phil to prove  that. He retorts that I should offer a 
solution. No, I 
don't need to offer a  solution so he can change the subject. He needs to 
prove his  
statement.

Phil says:

> What I have said is that  conditions, both material and social/political, 
in Iraq are 
>  improving.

He says things are improving. Okay, Phil, prove  that.

He cites several examples:

> On resupplying schools: -  $60 million dollar World Bank grant to rebuild 
schools 
>  http://tinyurl.com/3l8gl

That is a grant, yes, but a grant is so far  nothing but a promise. Until 
schools are built 
and the money is spent, it's  just a promise. Kids don't get educated by 
promises. So, no 
proof  yet.

> - U.S. soldiers working with the schools in their area of  responsibility 
> http://www.iraqischools.com/

This is a very  suspicious website. It looks too good. It could be another 
one of the  
military propaganda efforts, especially with a soldier named "Major  Softy".

But okay, maybe it's real. The success is... eleven schools?  That's it?

> On both schools and hospitals: - truthorfiction.com's  evaluation of 
various claims 
> http://tinyurl.com/5ohpb

Okay,  Phil, you get a do-over on this one. Why did you post something that 
undermines  your 
position?

Try this analysis of that email:  
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html

That original email was  written by a soldier in a military communications 
unit. In other 
words: US  military propaganda. The soldier's statements are mostly false or  
exaggerations.

> On electricity: - USAid's update on the production of  electricity 
http://tinyurl.com/6e269

Read the blogs from Iraq: they have  electricity only every once in a while.

Phil concludes:

> I  found the above in five minutes of searching, which should give some
>  indication of how easy it is to find out the positive things happening  in
> Iraq.

Well, it only shows is how HARD it is to find any facts  about the "positive 
things happening 
in Iraq" (Phil, those are your words).  (You also said "I certainly don't 
believe that 
everything is 'going just  fine in Iraq' nor have I said anything like that.")

> I am not going  to spend anymore time backing up my claims unless I
> have some sense that  Andreas will live up to his side of the deal.

This is the crux of the  entire discussion: you keep saying that "positive 
things are 
happening in  Iraq", yet you have not offered any proof whatsoever for that  
claim.

Instead, you try to change the subject and ask me to offer a  solution.

Phil: there is no solution. Bush created such a total fiasco  that there is 
no solution. Ask 
the UN to take over? They're not crazy. They  won't get into that quagmire. 
Split the country 
into three provinces with a  central federal government? That's an invitation 
to civil war. 
Simply  declare that Freedom Is Standing Tall and pull out? The whole thing 
collapses  into 
civil war. Do the Fallujah? Bomb Iraq into the Stone Age and send in  dozens 
of death squads 
to kill the survivors? Well... no. Stay there five  more years? At least 
5,000 more dead US 
troops, 50,000 wounded, and another  $250 billion.

You want a solution? There is no solution.

Can it  get worse? Oh, yes. It will get much worse.

Mr. Bush is getting ready to  invade Iran and Syria.

Phil, you gave the ball a whack, but again you hit  the fence. But this time, 
it didn't just 
bounce back over your end court; it  bounced over the spectator stands and 
there it goes, 
bouncing down the  street. Quick, Phil! Run and get it!

Why is your position so poor?  Marlena's posting from the Lancet is utterly 
devastating to 
anyone who wants  to find the positive in Iraq: the US destroyed the 
infrastructure and 
killed  somewhere around 100,000 people (the Lancet points out that the 
number could be  as 
high as 200,000; but 100,000 is the best statistical guess). The US  
destroyed the 
irrigation, the electricity, the airports, the harbors, the  hospitals, and 
so on; for lack 
of planning (and they had been warned it  would happen), the US allowed every 
public building 
and ministry to be  looted; the US dissolved the Iraqi army and created the 
conditions for 
the  widespread revolt against the US that is now killing so many people. 
First they  
completely shatter a country, and then they claim they can fix it, but so  
far, they've not 
even restored Iraq to the level it was when they've  started. 100,000 people 
died. How do 
they plan to restore those lives and  make good for the millions of family 
who lost fathers, 
mothers, and  children?

But, hey!, they're just Arabs! Who cares about Arabs anyway?  What about the 
good ol' USA? 
What has this done for the USA? It totally  wrecked our credibility and 
global leadership. 
Bush can't travel outside the  USA without 900 bodyguards, heck, he can't 
even hold his 
inauguration  without 10,000 police protecting him. 80% of the planet thinks 
Bush is  
dangerous. How does Bush plan to fix that problem? How are positive things  
going to happen 
to the US? The problem isn't just Iraq, it's the whole ball  of wax.

Phil, forget it. Game over. I won't ask you to prove your  statements 
anymore, because you 
just say stuff that has no  basis.

yrs,
andreas




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