[lit-ideas] Re: Iraq and news

> Disagree. It is unfair of Andreas to offer no constructive solutions in
> the context of this discussion.

No, it is not the context of this discussion as to whether I should offer a 
constructive 
solution.

The issue here is Phil's statement that Iraq has improved and is headed in the 
right 
direction. I am asking Phil to prove that. He retorts that I should offer a 
solution. No, I 
don't need to offer a solution so he can change the subject. He needs to prove 
his 
statement.

Phil says:

> What I have said is that conditions, both material and social/political, in 
> Iraq are 
> improving.

He says things are improving. Okay, Phil, prove that.

He cites several examples:

> On resupplying schools: - $60 million dollar World Bank grant to rebuild 
> schools 
> http://tinyurl.com/3l8gl

That is a grant, yes, but a grant is so far nothing but a promise. Until 
schools are built 
and the money is spent, it's just a promise. Kids don't get educated by 
promises. So, no 
proof yet.

> - U.S. soldiers working with the schools in their area of responsibility 
> http://www.iraqischools.com/

This is a very suspicious website. It looks too good. It could be another one 
of the 
military propaganda efforts, especially with a soldier named "Major Softy".

But okay, maybe it's real. The success is... eleven schools? That's it?

> On both schools and hospitals: - truthorfiction.com's evaluation of various 
> claims 
> http://tinyurl.com/5ohpb

Okay, Phil, you get a do-over on this one. Why did you post something that 
undermines your 
position?

Try this analysis of that email: http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html

That original email was written by a soldier in a military communications unit. 
In other 
words: US military propaganda. The soldier's statements are mostly false or 
exaggerations.

> On electricity: - USAid's update on the production of electricity 
> http://tinyurl.com/6e269

Read the blogs from Iraq: they have electricity only every once in a while.

Phil concludes:

> I found the above in five minutes of searching, which should give some
> indication of how easy it is to find out the positive things happening in
> Iraq.

Well, it only shows is how HARD it is to find any facts about the "positive 
things happening 
in Iraq" (Phil, those are your words). (You also said "I certainly don't 
believe that 
everything is 'going just fine in Iraq' nor have I said anything like that.")

> I am not going to spend anymore time backing up my claims unless I
> have some sense that Andreas will live up to his side of the deal.

This is the crux of the entire discussion: you keep saying that "positive 
things are 
happening in Iraq", yet you have not offered any proof whatsoever for that 
claim.

Instead, you try to change the subject and ask me to offer a solution.

Phil: there is no solution. Bush created such a total fiasco that there is no 
solution. Ask 
the UN to take over? They're not crazy. They won't get into that quagmire. 
Split the country 
into three provinces with a central federal government? That's an invitation to 
civil war. 
Simply declare that Freedom Is Standing Tall and pull out? The whole thing 
collapses into 
civil war. Do the Fallujah? Bomb Iraq into the Stone Age and send in dozens of 
death squads 
to kill the survivors? Well... no. Stay there five more years? At least 5,000 
more dead US 
troops, 50,000 wounded, and another $250 billion.

You want a solution? There is no solution.

Can it get worse? Oh, yes. It will get much worse.

Mr. Bush is getting ready to invade Iran and Syria.

Phil, you gave the ball a whack, but again you hit the fence. But this time, it 
didn't just 
bounce back over your end court; it bounced over the spectator stands and there 
it goes, 
bouncing down the street. Quick, Phil! Run and get it!

Why is your position so poor? Marlena's posting from the Lancet is utterly 
devastating to 
anyone who wants to find the positive in Iraq: the US destroyed the 
infrastructure and 
killed somewhere around 100,000 people (the Lancet points out that the number 
could be as 
high as 200,000; but 100,000 is the best statistical guess). The US destroyed 
the 
irrigation, the electricity, the airports, the harbors, the hospitals, and so 
on; for lack 
of planning (and they had been warned it would happen), the US allowed every 
public building 
and ministry to be looted; the US dissolved the Iraqi army and created the 
conditions for 
the widespread revolt against the US that is now killing so many people. First 
they 
completely shatter a country, and then they claim they can fix it, but so far, 
they've not 
even restored Iraq to the level it was when they've started. 100,000 people 
died. How do 
they plan to restore those lives and make good for the millions of family who 
lost fathers, 
mothers, and children?

But, hey!, they're just Arabs! Who cares about Arabs anyway? What about the 
good ol' USA? 
What has this done for the USA? It totally wrecked our credibility and global 
leadership. 
Bush can't travel outside the USA without 900 bodyguards, heck, he can't even 
hold his 
inauguration without 10,000 police protecting him. 80% of the planet thinks 
Bush is 
dangerous. How does Bush plan to fix that problem? How are positive things 
going to happen 
to the US? The problem isn't just Iraq, it's the whole ball of wax.

Phil, forget it. Game over. I won't ask you to prove your statements anymore, 
because you 
just say stuff that has no basis.

yrs,
andreas




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