[lit-ideas] Re: God bless you p.s.
- From: JulieReneB@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 00:25:58 EDT
And please feel free to distinguish between myth and Myth.
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you
Date: 7/30/2004 11:25:09 PM Central Daylight Time From: _JulieReneB@xxxxxxxx
(mailto:JulieReneB@xxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
So tell me, Mike.... what is the relationship among myth, fact, and
fiction, for you?
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you
Date: 7/30/2004 11:21:24 PM Central Daylight Time From:
_atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
(mailto:atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Here again we have an example of scholarly research stepping outside the
bounds of Academe to make assertions contrary to popular beliefs. This must
not be allowed to stand. Popular beliefs are popular beliefs for a reason.
("The heart has reasons" as that French guy said, "that reason does not
know) It's wrong to crush the need to believe with agnostic (atheistic?)
facts. It's all a matter of belief, Julie, and you as a human being are
free to believe anything you want. Do you choose to believe an explanation
that ties together several myths or one that leaves us as much in ignorance
as before. Consider this, Julie, it's all Myth. Even you to yourself are
a
myth. Why not embrace my explanation? It's far more elegant than RP's
dangling in the wind response.
Mike Geary
Memphis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Paul" <Robert.Paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:41 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you
> >Prove it.<
>
> Maybe not a proof, but a detailed examination of the claim that 'Ring
Around the
> Rosie' refers to the Black Plague:
>
> http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
>
> Ring Around the Rosie
>
> Claim: The nursery rhyme 'Ring Around the Rosie' is a coded reference to
the
> Black Plague.
>
> Status: False.
>
> Example: [Varasdi, 1989]
> ---------------------------------
> Every child has happily joined hands with friends and recited the familiar
> nursery rhyme, "Ring around a rosie, a pocket full of posies. Ashes,
ashes, we
> all fall down." Few people realize to what this seemingly happy little
nursery
> rhyme actually refers.
>
> This nursery rhyme began about 1347 and derives from the
not-so-delightful
Black
> Plague, which killed over twenty-five million people in the fourteenth
century.
> The "ring around a rosie" refers to the round, red rash that is the first
> symptom of the disease. The practice of carrying flowers and placing
them
around
> the infected person for protection is described in the phrase, "a pocket
full of
> posies." "Ashes" is a corruption or imitation of the sneezing sounds made
by the
> infected person. Finally, "we all fall down" describes the many dead
resulting
> from the disease.
>
> ---------------------------------
> Origins: If "few people realize" that "this seemingly happy little
nursery
> rhyme actually refers" to the Black Plague, so much the better, because
the
> explanation presented above is nonsense. "Ring Around the Rosie" is simply
a
> nursery rhyme of indefinite origin and no specific meaning, and someone,
long
> after the fact, concocted an inventive "explanation" for its creation.
>
> The "Black Plague" was the disease we call bubonic plague, spread by a
bacillus
> usually carried by rodents and transmitted to humans by fleas. The plague
first
> hit western Europe in 1347, and by 1350 it had killed nearly a third of
the
> population. Although some of the details of the plague offered in this
putative
> "Ring Around the Rosie" explanation are reasonably accurate (sneezing was
one of
> the symptoms of a form of the plague, for example, and some people did use
> flowers, incense, and perfumed oils to try to ward off the disease), the
notion
> that they were behind the creation of this nursery rhyme is extremely
> implausible for a number of reasons:
>
> ["Ring Around the Rosie" is sometimes said to have originated with a later
> outbreak of the plague which occurred in London in 1665, to which all of
the
> following reasoning applies as well.]
>
> * Although folklorists have been collecting and setting down in print
bits
of
> oral tradition such as nursery rhymes and fairy tales for hundreds of
years, the
> earliest print appearance of "Ring Around the Rosie" did not occur until
the
> publication of Kate Greenaway's Mother Goose or The Old Nursery Rhymes in
1881.
> For the "plague" explanation of "Ring Around the Rosie" to be true, we
have to
> believe that children were reciting this nursery rhyme continuously for
over
> five centuries, yet not one person in that five hundred year span found
it
> popular enough to merit writing it down. (How anyone could credibly
assert
that
> a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually "began about
1347" is a
> mystery. If the rhyme were really this old, then "Ring Around the Rosie"
> antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, and therefore we would have
examples
> of this rhyme in Middle English as well as Modern English forms.)
>
> * "Ring Around the Rosie" has many different variant forms which omit some
of
> the "plague" references or clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with
death or
> disease. For example, versions published by William Wells Newell in 1883:
>
> Ring a ring a rosie,
> A bottle full of posie,
> All the girls in our town,
> Ring for little Josie.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Round the ring of roses,
> Pots full of posies,
> The one stoops the last
> Shall tell whom she loves the best.
>
> Or this version from Charlotte Sophia Burne's 1883 Shropshire Folk-Lore:
>
> Ring-a-ring o' roses,
> A pocket full of posies,
> One for Jack, and one for Jim,
> And one for little Moses.
> A-tischa! A-tischa! A-tischa!
>
> Or this version collected by Alice Gomme and published in the Dictionary
of
> British Folk-Lore in 1898:
>
> Ring, a ring o' roses,
> A pocket full o' posies,
> Up-stairs and down-stairs,
> In my lady's chamber --
> Husher! Husher! Cuckoo!
>
> Quite a fervent imagination is required to maintain that any of these
variations
> has anything to do with a plague, and since they were all collected within
a few
> years of each other, how could anyone determine that the "plague" version
of
> "Ring Around the Rosie" was the original, and the other versions later
> corruptions of it? (And why is it that this rhyme supposedly remained
intact for
> five centuries, then suddenly started sprouting all sorts of variations
only in
> the late nineteenth century?)
>
> * The explanations of the rhyme's "true" meaning are inconsistent, and
they seem
> to be contrived to match whichever version of "Ring Around the Rosie" the
teller
> is familar with. For example, the purpose of the "pocket full of posies"
is said
> to by any one of the following:
> * Something carried to ward off the disease.
> * A way of masking the "stench of death."
> * An item the dead were commonly buried with.
> * Flowers to place "on a grave or funeral pyre."
> * A representation of the "pus or infection under the skin in the sores"
of
> plague victims.
>
> Likewise, multiple meanings are claimed for the repetition of "ashes" at
the
> beginning of the last line:
>
> * A representation of the sneezing sounds of plague victims.
> * A reference to the practice of burning the bodies of those who succumbed
to
> the plague.
> * A reference to the practice of burning the homes of plague sufferers to
> prevent spread of disease.
> * A reference to the blackish discoloration of victims' skin from which
the term
> "Black Plague" was derived.
>
> The word "ashes" cannot be "a corruption of the sneezing sounds made by
the
> infected person" and a word used for its literal meaning. Either "ashes"
was a
> corruption of an earlier form or a deliberate use; it can't be both.
Moreover,
> the "ashes" ending of "Ring Around the Rosie" appears to be a fairly
modern
> addition to the rhyme; earlier versions repeat other words or syllables
instead
> (e.g., "Hush!", "A-tischa!", "Hasher", "Husher", "Hatch-u", "A-tishoo")
or, as
> noted above, have completely different endings.
>
> * Children were apparently reciting this plague-inspired nursery rhyme
for
over
> six hundred years before someone finally figured out what they were
talking
> about, as the first known mention of a plague interpretation of "Ring
Around the
> Rosie" didn't show up until James Leasor published The Plague and the Fire
in
> 1961. This sounds suspiciously like the "discovery," several decades after
the
> fact, that L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was written as a
coded
> parable about Populism. How come no contemporaries of Baum -- those much
closer
> in time and place to what he was writing about -- ever noticed this? The
answer
> is that Baum merely authored a children's book, and it was only much later
that
> someone invented a fanciful interpretation of it -- an interpretation that
has
> become more and more layered and embellished over the years and has now
become
> widely accepted as "fact" despite all evidence to the contrary. It isn't
> difficult to imagine that such a process has been applied to "Ring Around
the
> Rosie" as well, especially since we humans have such a fondness for trying
to
> make sense of the nonsensical, seeking to find order in randomness, and
> especially for discovering and sharing secrets. The older the secret, the
better
> (because age demonstrates the secret has eluded so many others before
us),
and
> so we've read "hidden" meanings into all sorts of innocuous nursery
rhymes: The
> dish who ran away with the spoon in "Hey Diddle, Diddle" is really Queen
> Elizabeth I (or Catherine of Aragon or Catherine the Great), or "Humpty
Dumpty"
> and "The Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe" describe the "spread and
fragmentation
> of the British Empire." (The process is aided by a general consensus that
some
> nursery rhymes, such as "Old King Cole," quite likely were actually based
on
> real historical figures.)
>
> So, what does "Ring Around the Rosie" mean, then? Folklorist Philip
Hiscock
> suggests:
>
> The more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on
dancing
among
> many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain as well as here in
North
> America. Adolescents found a way around the dancing ban with what was
called in
> the United States the "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring games
which
> differed from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical
> accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into
the
act,
> too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which involve rings of
> children, derive from these play-party games. "Little Sally Saucer" (or
"Sally
> Waters") is one of them, and "Ring Around the Rosie" seems to be another.
The
> rings referred to in the rhymes are literally the rings formed by the
playing
> children. "Ashes, ashes" probably comes from something like "Husha, husha"
> (another common variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling
silent.
> And the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when
they
let
> go of each other and throw themselves into the circle.
>
> Like "A Tisket, A Tasket" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" or even "I Am the
Walrus," the
> rhyme we call "Ring Around the Rosie" has no particular meaning,
regardless of
> our latter day efforts to create one for it. They're all simply
collections of
> words and sounds that someone thought sounded good together. As John
Lennon once
> explained:
>
> We've learned over the years that if we wanted we could write anything
that just
> felt good or sounded good and it didn't necessarily have to have any
particular
> meaning to us. As odd as it seemed to us, reviewers would take it upon
> themselves to interject their own meanings on our lyrics. Sometimes we sit
and
> read other people's interpretations of our lyrics and think, 'Hey, that's
pretty
> good.' If we liked it, we would keep our mouths shut and just accept the
credit
> as if it was what we meant all along.
>
> Additional information:
>
> The Black Death: Bubonic Plague
>
> Last updated: 17 November 2000
>
> The URL for this page is http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
> Click here to e-mail this page to a friend
>
> Urban Legends Reference Pages (c) 1995-2003
> by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
> This material may not be reproduced without permission
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sources:
>
> Bowman, Marion. "Ring-a-Ring-a-Roses."
> Talking Folklore. August 1989 (pp. 1-14).
>
> Burne, Charlotte Sophia. Shropshire Folk-Lore: A Sheaf of
Gleaning.
> London: Trubner & Co., 1883.
>
> Delamar, Gloria T. Mother Goose: From Nursery to Literature.
> Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Co., 1987.
>
> Gomme, Alice Bertha. The Traditional Games of England, Scotland, and
> Ireland.
> New York: Dover Publications, 1964. ISBN 0-500-27316-2.
>
> Greenaway, Kate. Mother Goose or The Old Nursery Rhymes.
> London: George Routledge and Sons, 1881.
>
> Hiscock, Philip. "Said and Done."
> [St. John's] Sunday Express. 27 January 1991.
>
> Leasor, James. The Plague and the Fire.
> New York: McGraw-Hill, 1961.
>
> Mansfield, Ken. The Beatles, the Bible, and Bodega Bay.
> Nashville: Broadman & Holman, 2000. ISBN 0-8054-2289-7 (pp.
220-221).
>
> Morgan, Hal and Kerry Tucker. More Rumor!
> New York: Penguin Books, 1987. ISBN 0-14-009720-1 (pp. 92-93).
>
> Newell, William Wells. Games and Songs of American Children.
> New York: Harper and Brothers, 1883.
>
> Opie, Iona and Peter. The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes [2nd
> Edition].
> New York: Oxford University Press, 1997.
>
> Slack, Paul. The Impact of the Plague in Tudor and Stuart England.
> Oxford Univ. Press, 1990. ISBN 0-19-820213.
>
> Varasdi, J. Allen. Myth Information.
> New York: Ballantine Books, 1989. ISBN 0-345-35985-2 (pp.
205-206).
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Also told in:
>
> Butler, William S. and L. Douglas Keeney. Secret Messages.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Paul
> The Reed Institute
>
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