[lit-ideas] Re: God bless you

JK:
> So tell me, Mike....  what is the relationship among myth,  fact, and
> fiction, for you?


Sorry, sweetheart, I don't do distinctions.

Sincerely,
Mike Geary
Memphis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JulieReneB@xxxxxxx>
To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 11:24 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you


> So tell me, Mike....  what is the relationship among myth,  fact, and
> fiction, for you?
>
> Julie Krueger
> ========Original  Message========     Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you
> Date: 7/30/2004 11:21:24 PM Central Daylight Time  From:
_atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent on:
> Here again we have an example of scholarly  research stepping outside the
> bounds of Academe to make assertions contrary  to popular beliefs.  This
must
> not be allowed to stand.  Popular  beliefs are popular beliefs for a
reason.
> ("The heart has reasons" as that  French guy said, "that reason does not
> know)  It's wrong to crush the  need to believe with agnostic (atheistic?)
> facts.  It's all a matter of  belief, Julie, and you as a human being are
> free to believe anything you  want.  Do you choose to believe an
explanation
> that ties together  several myths or one that leaves us as much in
ignorance
> as before.   Consider this, Julie, it's all Myth.  Even you to yourself
are  a
> myth.  Why not embrace my explanation?  It's far more elegant  than RP's
> dangling in the wind response.
>
> Mike  Geary
> Memphis
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From:  "Robert Paul" <Robert.Paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To:  <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:41  PM
> Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you
>
>
> > >Prove  it.<
> >
> > Maybe not a proof, but a detailed examination of the  claim that 'Ring
> Around the
> > Rosie' refers to the Black  Plague:
> >
> >  http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
> >
> > Ring Around  the Rosie
> >
> > Claim:   The nursery rhyme 'Ring Around the  Rosie' is a coded reference
to
> the
> > Black Plague.
> >
> >  Status:   False.
> >
> > Example:   [Varasdi,  1989]
> > ---------------------------------
> > Every child has happily  joined hands with friends and recited the
familiar
> > nursery rhyme, "Ring  around a rosie, a pocket full of posies. Ashes,
> ashes, we
> > all fall  down." Few people realize to what this seemingly happy little
> nursery
> >  rhyme actually refers.
> >
> > This nursery rhyme began about 1347 and  derives from the
not-so-delightful
> Black
> > Plague, which killed over  twenty-five million people in the fourteenth
> century.
> > The "ring  around a rosie" refers to the round, red rash that is the
first
> > symptom  of the disease. The practice of carrying flowers and placing
them
> around
> > the infected person for protection is described in the  phrase, "a
pocket
> full of
> > posies." "Ashes" is a corruption or  imitation of the sneezing sounds
made
> by the
> > infected person.  Finally, "we all fall down" describes the many dead
> resulting
> > from  the disease.
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >  Origins:   If  "few people realize" that "this seemingly happy  little
> nursery
> > rhyme actually refers" to the Black Plague, so much  the better, because
> the
> > explanation presented above is nonsense.  "Ring Around the Rosie" is
simply
> a
> > nursery rhyme of indefinite  origin and no specific meaning, and
someone,
> long
> > after the fact,  concocted an inventive "explanation" for its creation.
> >
> > The  "Black Plague" was the disease we call bubonic plague, spread by  a
> bacillus
> > usually carried by rodents and transmitted to humans by  fleas. The
plague
> first
> > hit western Europe in 1347, and by 1350 it  had killed nearly a third of
> the
> > population. Although some of the  details of the plague offered in this
> putative
> > "Ring Around the  Rosie" explanation are reasonably accurate (sneezing
was
> one of
> > the  symptoms of a form of the plague, for example, and some people did
use
> >  flowers, incense, and perfumed oils to try to ward off the disease),
the
> notion
> > that they were behind the creation of this nursery rhyme  is extremely
> > implausible for a number of reasons:
> >
> > ["Ring  Around the Rosie" is sometimes said to have originated with a
later
> >  outbreak of the plague which occurred in London in 1665, to which all
of
> the
> > following reasoning applies as well.]
> >
> > *  Although folklorists have been collecting and setting down in print
bits
> of
> > oral tradition such as nursery rhymes and fairy tales for  hundreds of
> years, the
> > earliest print appearance of "Ring Around the  Rosie" did not occur
until
> the
> > publication of Kate Greenaway's Mother  Goose or The Old Nursery Rhymes
in
> 1881.
> > For the "plague" explanation  of "Ring Around the Rosie" to be true, we
> have to
> > believe that  children were reciting this nursery rhyme continuously for
> over
> > five  centuries, yet not one person in that five hundred year span found
it
> >  popular enough to merit writing it down. (How anyone could credibly
assert
> that
> > a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually  "began about
> 1347" is a
> > mystery. If the rhyme were really this old,  then "Ring Around the
Rosie"
> > antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales,  and therefore we would have
> examples
> > of this rhyme in Middle English  as well as Modern English forms.)
> >
> > * "Ring Around the Rosie" has  many different variant forms which omit
some
> of
> > the "plague"  references or clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with
> death or
> >  disease. For example, versions published by William Wells Newell in
1883:
> >
> > Ring a ring a rosie,
> > A bottle full of  posie,
> > All the girls in our town,
> > Ring for little  Josie.
> >
>
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >  Round the ring of roses,
> > Pots full of posies,
> > The one stoops the  last
> > Shall tell whom she loves the best.
> >
> > Or this version  from Charlotte Sophia Burne's 1883 Shropshire
Folk-Lore:
> >
> >  Ring-a-ring o' roses,
> > A pocket full of posies,
> > One for Jack, and  one for Jim,
> > And one for little Moses.
> > A-tischa! A-tischa!  A-tischa!
> >
> > Or this version collected by Alice Gomme and published  in the
Dictionary
> of
> > British Folk-Lore in 1898:
> >
> > Ring,  a ring o' roses,
> > A pocket full o' posies,
> > Up-stairs and  down-stairs,
> > In my lady's chamber -- 
> > Husher! Husher!  Cuckoo!
> >
> > Quite a fervent imagination is required to maintain that  any of these
> variations
> > has anything to do with a plague, and since  they were all collected
within
> a few
> > years of each other, how could  anyone determine that the "plague"
version
> of
> > "Ring Around the Rosie"  was the original, and the other versions later
> > corruptions of it? (And  why is it that this rhyme supposedly remained
> intact for
> > five  centuries, then suddenly started sprouting all sorts of variations
> only  in
> > the late nineteenth century?)
> >
> > * The explanations of  the rhyme's "true" meaning are inconsistent, and
> they seem
> > to be  contrived to match whichever version of "Ring Around the Rosie"
the
> teller
> > is familar with. For example, the purpose of the "pocket  full of
posies"
> is said
> > to by any one of the following:
> > *  Something carried to ward off the disease.
> > * A way of masking the  "stench of death."
> > * An item the dead were commonly buried with.
> >  * Flowers to place "on a grave or funeral pyre."
> > * A representation of  the "pus or infection under the skin in the
sores"
> of
> > plague  victims.
> >
> > Likewise, multiple meanings are claimed for the  repetition of "ashes"
at
> the
> > beginning of the last  line:
> >
> > * A representation of the sneezing sounds of plague  victims.
> > * A reference to the practice of burning the bodies of those  who
succumbed
> to
> > the plague.
> > * A reference to the practice of  burning the homes of plague sufferers
to
> > prevent spread of  disease.
> > * A reference to the blackish discoloration of victims' skin  from which
> the term
> > "Black Plague" was derived.
> >
> > The  word "ashes" cannot be "a corruption of the sneezing sounds made
by
> the
> > infected person" and a word used for its literal meaning.  Either
"ashes"
> was a
> > corruption of an earlier form or a deliberate  use; it can't be both.
> Moreover,
> > the "ashes" ending of "Ring Around  the Rosie" appears to be a fairly
> modern
> > addition to the rhyme;  earlier versions repeat other words or syllables
> instead
> > (e.g.,  "Hush!", "A-tischa!", "Hasher", "Husher", "Hatch-u", "A-tishoo")
> or,  as
> > noted above, have completely different endings.
> >
> > *  Children were apparently reciting this plague-inspired nursery rhyme
for
> over
> > six hundred years before someone finally figured out what  they were
> talking
> > about, as the first known mention of a plague  interpretation of "Ring
> Around the
> > Rosie" didn't show up until James  Leasor published The Plague and the
Fire
> in
> > 1961. This sounds  suspiciously like the "discovery," several decades
after
> the
> > fact,  that L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was written as  a
> coded
> > parable about Populism. How come no contemporaries of Baum --  those
much
> closer
> > in time and place to what he was writing about --  ever noticed this?
The
> answer
> > is that Baum merely authored a  children's book, and it was only much
later
> that
> > someone invented a  fanciful interpretation of it -- an interpretation
that
> has
> > become  more and more layered and embellished over the years and has
now
> become
> > widely accepted as "fact" despite all evidence to the  contrary. It
isn't
> > difficult to imagine that such a process has been  applied to "Ring
Around
> the
> > Rosie" as well, especially since we  humans have such a fondness for
trying
> to
> > make sense of the  nonsensical, seeking to find order in randomness, and
> > especially for  discovering and sharing secrets. The older the secret,
the
> better
> >  (because age demonstrates the secret has eluded so many others before
us),
> and
> > so we've read "hidden" meanings into all sorts of innocuous  nursery
> rhymes: The
> > dish who ran away with the spoon in "Hey Diddle,  Diddle" is really
Queen
> > Elizabeth I (or Catherine of Aragon or Catherine  the Great), or "Humpty
> Dumpty"
> > and "The Old Woman Who Lived in a  Shoe" describe the "spread and
> fragmentation
> > of the British Empire."  (The process is aided by a general consensus
that
> some
> > nursery  rhymes, such as "Old King Cole," quite likely were actually
based
> on
> >  real historical figures.)
> >
> > So, what does "Ring Around the Rosie"  mean, then? Folklorist Philip
> Hiscock
> > suggests:
> >
> > The  more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on
dancing
> among
> > many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain  as well as here
in
> North
> > America. Adolescents found a way around the  dancing ban with what was
> called in
> > the United States the  "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring
games
> which
> > differed  from square dances only in their name and their lack of
musical
> >  accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into
the
> act,
> > too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which  involve rings
of
> > children, derive from these play-party games. "Little  Sally Saucer" (or
> "Sally
> > Waters") is one of them, and "Ring Around  the Rosie" seems to be
another.
> The
> > rings referred to in the rhymes  are literally the rings formed by the
> playing
> > children. "Ashes,  ashes" probably comes from something like "Husha,
husha"
> > (another common  variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling
> silent.
> > And  the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when
they
> let
> > go of each other and throw themselves into the  circle.
> >
> > Like "A Tisket, A Tasket" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" or even  "I Am the
> Walrus," the
> > rhyme we call "Ring Around the Rosie" has no  particular meaning,
> regardless of
> > our latter day efforts to create  one for it. They're all simply
> collections of
> > words and sounds that  someone thought sounded good together. As John
> Lennon once
> >  explained:
> >
> > We've learned over the years that if we wanted we  could write anything
> that just
> > felt good or sounded good and it  didn't necessarily have to have any
> particular
> > meaning to us. As odd  as it seemed to us, reviewers would take it upon
> > themselves to interject  their own meanings on our lyrics. Sometimes we
sit
> and
> > read other  people's interpretations of our lyrics and think, 'Hey,
that's
> pretty
> >  good.' If we liked it, we would keep our mouths shut and just accept
the
> credit
> > as if it was what we meant all along.
> >
> >  Additional information:
> >
> >        The Black  Death: Bubonic Plague
> >
> > Last updated:   17 November  2000
> >
> > The URL for this page is
http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
> > Click here to e-mail  this page to a friend
> >
> > Urban Legends Reference Pages (c)  1995-2003
> > by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
> > This material may  not be reproduced without permission
> >
>
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   Sources:
> >
> >     Bowman, Marion.    "Ring-a-Ring-a-Roses."
> >     Talking Folklore.    August 1989   (pp. 1-14).
> >
> >     Burne,  Charlotte Sophia.   Shropshire Folk-Lore: A Sheaf of
Gleaning.
> >     London: Trubner & Co.,  1883.
> >
> >     Delamar, Gloria T.   Mother  Goose: From Nursery to Literature.
> >     Jefferson, NC:  McFarland & Co., 1987.
> >
> >     Gomme, Alice  Bertha.   The Traditional Games of England, Scotland,
and
> >  Ireland.
> >     New York: Dover Publications,  1964.   ISBN 0-500-27316-2.
> >
> >      Greenaway, Kate.   Mother Goose or The Old Nursery  Rhymes.
> >     London: George Routledge and Sons,  1881.
> >
> >     Hiscock, Philip.   "Said and  Done."
> >     [St. John's] Sunday Express.   27  January 1991.
> >
> >     Leasor, James.   The  Plague and the Fire.
> >     New York: McGraw-Hill,  1961.
> >
> >     Mansfield, Ken.   The  Beatles, the Bible, and Bodega Bay.
> >     Nashville:  Broadman & Holman, 2000.   ISBN 0-8054-2289-7    (pp.
> 220-221).
> >
> >     Morgan, Hal and Kerry  Tucker.   More Rumor!
> >     New York: Penguin  Books, 1987.   ISBN 0-14-009720-1   (pp.  92-93).
> >
> >     Newell, William Wells.    Games and Songs of American Children.
> >     New York:  Harper and Brothers, 1883.
> >
> >     Opie, Iona and  Peter.   The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes
[2nd
> > Edition].
> >     New York: Oxford University  Press, 1997.
> >
> >     Slack, Paul.   The  Impact of the Plague in Tudor and Stuart
England.
> >      Oxford Univ. Press, 1990.   ISBN 0-19-820213.
> >
> >   Varasdi, J. Allen.   Myth Information.
> >   New York: Ballantine Books, 1989.   ISBN  0-345-35985-2   (pp.
> 205-206).
> >
>
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >   Also told in:
> >
> >     Butler, William S. and  L. Douglas Keeney.   Secret Messages.
> >
>
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> > Robert Paul
> > The Reed Institute
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------------
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