[lit-ideas] Re: God bless you

So tell me, Mike....  what is the relationship among myth,  fact, and 
fiction, for you?
 
Julie Krueger
========Original  Message========     Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you  
Date: 7/30/2004 11:21:24 PM Central Daylight Time  From: _atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   To: _lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
(mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx)   Sent on:    
Here again we have an example of scholarly  research stepping outside the
bounds of Academe to make assertions contrary  to popular beliefs.  This must
not be allowed to stand.  Popular  beliefs are popular beliefs for a reason.
("The heart has reasons" as that  French guy said, "that reason does not
know)  It's wrong to crush the  need to believe with agnostic (atheistic?)
facts.  It's all a matter of  belief, Julie, and you as a human being are
free to believe anything you  want.  Do you choose to believe an explanation
that ties together  several myths or one that leaves us as much in ignorance
as before.   Consider this, Julie, it's all Myth.  Even you to yourself are  a
myth.  Why not embrace my explanation?  It's far more elegant  than RP's
dangling in the wind response.

Mike  Geary
Memphis




----- Original Message ----- 
From:  "Robert Paul" <Robert.Paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To:  <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:41  PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: God bless you


> >Prove  it.<
>
> Maybe not a proof, but a detailed examination of the  claim that 'Ring
Around the
> Rosie' refers to the Black  Plague:
>
>  http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
>
> Ring Around  the Rosie
>
> Claim:   The nursery rhyme 'Ring Around the  Rosie' is a coded reference to
the
> Black Plague.
>
>  Status:   False.
>
> Example:   [Varasdi,  1989]
> ---------------------------------
> Every child has happily  joined hands with friends and recited the familiar
> nursery rhyme, "Ring  around a rosie, a pocket full of posies. Ashes,
ashes, we
> all fall  down." Few people realize to what this seemingly happy little
nursery
>  rhyme actually refers.
>
> This nursery rhyme began about 1347 and  derives from the not-so-delightful
Black
> Plague, which killed over  twenty-five million people in the fourteenth
century.
> The "ring  around a rosie" refers to the round, red rash that is the first
> symptom  of the disease. The practice of carrying flowers and placing  them
around
> the infected person for protection is described in the  phrase, "a pocket
full of
> posies." "Ashes" is a corruption or  imitation of the sneezing sounds made
by the
> infected person.  Finally, "we all fall down" describes the many dead
resulting
> from  the disease.
>
> ---------------------------------
>  Origins:   If  "few people realize" that "this seemingly happy  little
nursery
> rhyme actually refers" to the Black Plague, so much  the better, because
the
> explanation presented above is nonsense.  "Ring Around the Rosie" is simply
a
> nursery rhyme of indefinite  origin and no specific meaning, and someone,
long
> after the fact,  concocted an inventive "explanation" for its creation.
>
> The  "Black Plague" was the disease we call bubonic plague, spread by  a
bacillus
> usually carried by rodents and transmitted to humans by  fleas. The plague
first
> hit western Europe in 1347, and by 1350 it  had killed nearly a third of
the
> population. Although some of the  details of the plague offered in this
putative
> "Ring Around the  Rosie" explanation are reasonably accurate (sneezing was
one of
> the  symptoms of a form of the plague, for example, and some people did use
>  flowers, incense, and perfumed oils to try to ward off the disease),  the
notion
> that they were behind the creation of this nursery rhyme  is extremely
> implausible for a number of reasons:
>
> ["Ring  Around the Rosie" is sometimes said to have originated with a later
>  outbreak of the plague which occurred in London in 1665, to which all  of
the
> following reasoning applies as well.]
>
> *  Although folklorists have been collecting and setting down in print  bits
of
> oral tradition such as nursery rhymes and fairy tales for  hundreds of
years, the
> earliest print appearance of "Ring Around the  Rosie" did not occur until
the
> publication of Kate Greenaway's Mother  Goose or The Old Nursery Rhymes in
1881.
> For the "plague" explanation  of "Ring Around the Rosie" to be true, we
have to
> believe that  children were reciting this nursery rhyme continuously for
over
> five  centuries, yet not one person in that five hundred year span found it
>  popular enough to merit writing it down. (How anyone could credibly  assert
that
> a rhyme which didn't appear in print until 1881 actually  "began about
1347" is a
> mystery. If the rhyme were really this old,  then "Ring Around the Rosie"
> antedates even Chaucer's Canterbury Tales,  and therefore we would have
examples
> of this rhyme in Middle English  as well as Modern English forms.)
>
> * "Ring Around the Rosie" has  many different variant forms which omit some
of
> the "plague"  references or clearly have nothing whatsoever to do with
death or
>  disease. For example, versions published by William Wells Newell in  1883:
>
> Ring a ring a rosie,
> A bottle full of  posie,
> All the girls in our town,
> Ring for little  Josie.
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Round the ring of roses,
> Pots full of posies,
> The one stoops the  last
> Shall tell whom she loves the best.
>
> Or this version  from Charlotte Sophia Burne's 1883 Shropshire Folk-Lore:
>
>  Ring-a-ring o' roses,
> A pocket full of posies,
> One for Jack, and  one for Jim,
> And one for little Moses.
> A-tischa! A-tischa!  A-tischa!
>
> Or this version collected by Alice Gomme and published  in the Dictionary
of
> British Folk-Lore in 1898:
>
> Ring,  a ring o' roses,
> A pocket full o' posies,
> Up-stairs and  down-stairs,
> In my lady's chamber -- 
> Husher! Husher!  Cuckoo!
>
> Quite a fervent imagination is required to maintain that  any of these
variations
> has anything to do with a plague, and since  they were all collected within
a few
> years of each other, how could  anyone determine that the "plague" version
of
> "Ring Around the Rosie"  was the original, and the other versions later
> corruptions of it? (And  why is it that this rhyme supposedly remained
intact for
> five  centuries, then suddenly started sprouting all sorts of variations
only  in
> the late nineteenth century?)
>
> * The explanations of  the rhyme's "true" meaning are inconsistent, and
they seem
> to be  contrived to match whichever version of "Ring Around the Rosie"  the
teller
> is familar with. For example, the purpose of the "pocket  full of posies"
is said
> to by any one of the following:
> *  Something carried to ward off the disease.
> * A way of masking the  "stench of death."
> * An item the dead were commonly buried with.
>  * Flowers to place "on a grave or funeral pyre."
> * A representation of  the "pus or infection under the skin in the sores"
of
> plague  victims.
>
> Likewise, multiple meanings are claimed for the  repetition of "ashes" at
the
> beginning of the last  line:
>
> * A representation of the sneezing sounds of plague  victims.
> * A reference to the practice of burning the bodies of those  who succumbed
to
> the plague.
> * A reference to the practice of  burning the homes of plague sufferers to
> prevent spread of  disease.
> * A reference to the blackish discoloration of victims' skin  from which
the term
> "Black Plague" was derived.
>
> The  word "ashes" cannot be "a corruption of the sneezing sounds made  by
the
> infected person" and a word used for its literal meaning.  Either "ashes"
was a
> corruption of an earlier form or a deliberate  use; it can't be both.
Moreover,
> the "ashes" ending of "Ring Around  the Rosie" appears to be a fairly
modern
> addition to the rhyme;  earlier versions repeat other words or syllables
instead
> (e.g.,  "Hush!", "A-tischa!", "Hasher", "Husher", "Hatch-u", "A-tishoo")
or,  as
> noted above, have completely different endings.
>
> *  Children were apparently reciting this plague-inspired nursery rhyme  for
over
> six hundred years before someone finally figured out what  they were
talking
> about, as the first known mention of a plague  interpretation of "Ring
Around the
> Rosie" didn't show up until James  Leasor published The Plague and the Fire
in
> 1961. This sounds  suspiciously like the "discovery," several decades after
the
> fact,  that L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz was written as  a
coded
> parable about Populism. How come no contemporaries of Baum --  those much
closer
> in time and place to what he was writing about --  ever noticed this? The
answer
> is that Baum merely authored a  children's book, and it was only much later
that
> someone invented a  fanciful interpretation of it -- an interpretation that
has
> become  more and more layered and embellished over the years and has  now
become
> widely accepted as "fact" despite all evidence to the  contrary. It isn't
> difficult to imagine that such a process has been  applied to "Ring Around
the
> Rosie" as well, especially since we  humans have such a fondness for trying
to
> make sense of the  nonsensical, seeking to find order in randomness, and
> especially for  discovering and sharing secrets. The older the secret, the
better
>  (because age demonstrates the secret has eluded so many others before  us),
and
> so we've read "hidden" meanings into all sorts of innocuous  nursery
rhymes: The
> dish who ran away with the spoon in "Hey Diddle,  Diddle" is really Queen
> Elizabeth I (or Catherine of Aragon or Catherine  the Great), or "Humpty
Dumpty"
> and "The Old Woman Who Lived in a  Shoe" describe the "spread and
fragmentation
> of the British Empire."  (The process is aided by a general consensus that
some
> nursery  rhymes, such as "Old King Cole," quite likely were actually based
on
>  real historical figures.)
>
> So, what does "Ring Around the Rosie"  mean, then? Folklorist Philip
Hiscock
> suggests:
>
> The  more likely explanation is to be found in the religious ban on  dancing
among
> many Protestants in the nineteenth century, in Britain  as well as here in
North
> America. Adolescents found a way around the  dancing ban with what was
called in
> the United States the  "play-party." Play-parties consisted of ring games
which
> differed  from square dances only in their name and their lack of musical
>  accompaniment. They were hugely popular, and younger children got into  the
act,
> too. Some modern nursery games, particularly those which  involve rings of
> children, derive from these play-party games. "Little  Sally Saucer" (or
"Sally
> Waters") is one of them, and "Ring Around  the Rosie" seems to be another.
The
> rings referred to in the rhymes  are literally the rings formed by the
playing
> children. "Ashes,  ashes" probably comes from something like "Husha, husha"
> (another common  variant) which refers to stopping the ring and falling
silent.
> And  the falling down refers to the jumble of bodies in that ring when  they
let
> go of each other and throw themselves into the  circle.
>
> Like "A Tisket, A Tasket" or "Hey Diddle Diddle" or even  "I Am the
Walrus," the
> rhyme we call "Ring Around the Rosie" has no  particular meaning,
regardless of
> our latter day efforts to create  one for it. They're all simply
collections of
> words and sounds that  someone thought sounded good together. As John
Lennon once
>  explained:
>
> We've learned over the years that if we wanted we  could write anything
that just
> felt good or sounded good and it  didn't necessarily have to have any
particular
> meaning to us. As odd  as it seemed to us, reviewers would take it upon
> themselves to interject  their own meanings on our lyrics. Sometimes we sit
and
> read other  people's interpretations of our lyrics and think, 'Hey, that's
pretty
>  good.' If we liked it, we would keep our mouths shut and just accept  the
credit
> as if it was what we meant all along.
>
>  Additional information:
>
>        The Black  Death: Bubonic Plague
>
> Last updated:   17 November  2000
>
> The URL for this page is  http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm
> Click here to e-mail  this page to a friend
>
> Urban Legends Reference Pages (c)  1995-2003
> by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson
> This material may  not be reproduced without permission
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Sources:
>
>     Bowman, Marion.    "Ring-a-Ring-a-Roses."
>     Talking Folklore.    August 1989   (pp. 1-14).
>
>     Burne,  Charlotte Sophia.   Shropshire Folk-Lore: A Sheaf of  Gleaning.
>     London: Trubner & Co.,  1883.
>
>     Delamar, Gloria T.   Mother  Goose: From Nursery to Literature.
>     Jefferson, NC:  McFarland & Co., 1987.
>
>     Gomme, Alice  Bertha.   The Traditional Games of England, Scotland, and
>  Ireland.
>     New York: Dover Publications,  1964.   ISBN 0-500-27316-2.
>
>      Greenaway, Kate.   Mother Goose or The Old Nursery  Rhymes.
>     London: George Routledge and Sons,  1881.
>
>     Hiscock, Philip.   "Said and  Done."
>     [St. John's] Sunday Express.   27  January 1991.
>
>     Leasor, James.   The  Plague and the Fire.
>     New York: McGraw-Hill,  1961.
>
>     Mansfield, Ken.   The  Beatles, the Bible, and Bodega Bay.
>     Nashville:  Broadman & Holman, 2000.   ISBN 0-8054-2289-7    (pp.
220-221).
>
>     Morgan, Hal and Kerry  Tucker.   More Rumor!
>     New York: Penguin  Books, 1987.   ISBN 0-14-009720-1   (pp.  92-93).
>
>     Newell, William Wells.    Games and Songs of American Children.
>     New York:  Harper and Brothers, 1883.
>
>     Opie, Iona and  Peter.   The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes    [2nd
> Edition].
>     New York: Oxford University  Press, 1997.
>
>     Slack, Paul.   The  Impact of the Plague in Tudor and Stuart England.
>      Oxford Univ. Press, 1990.   ISBN 0-19-820213.
>
>   Varasdi, J. Allen.   Myth Information.
>   New York: Ballantine Books, 1989.   ISBN  0-345-35985-2   (pp.
205-206).
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Also told in:
>
>     Butler, William S. and  L. Douglas Keeney.   Secret Messages.
>
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> Robert Paul
> The Reed Institute
>
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