[lit-ideas] FW: Re: See SAW
- From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "lit-ideas" <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 7 May 2006 09:47:53 -0400
I know I criticize the Americans as being no superior species, but the
other side isn't exactly setting precedents for civilized behavior either.
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Omar Kusturica <omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 5/7/2006 2:11:18 AM
> > Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: See SAW
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Lawrence Helm <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > But back to the point: I asked Andreas, "Are you
> > > arguing that the largely
> > > Shiite government doesn't want our continued
> > > support?"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Andreas seemed to think he was providing evidence
> > > that the Shiite government
> > > didn't want our continued support, but nothing he
> > > provided contained that
> > > evidence.
> >
> > *He did provide evidence that the Iraqi public,
> > including Shiite, wants the US withdrawal. But I am
> > not sure that the current Shiite government wants it,
> > seeing that it is too weak to control Shia and Sunni
> > militias. See:
> >
> > http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HE06Ak02.html
> >
> > So it looks like the US has created a failed state
> > that it will permanently require US military presence
> > to keep it from falling apart. Maybe this has been the
> > goal all along.
> >
>
>
> Based on what I see in our media, I honestly doubt that this was the goal,
> or in fact that there was ever any goal. I've asked the warmongers on
this
> list how they saw the world post Saddam when they were advocating invading
> Iraq, and how they envision the world post an Iran invasion, and there are
> no answers. Lawrence repeatedly has used the words 'global leadership'
yet
> when asked a couple of times to define the terms, to say what global
> leadership looks like, he hasn't done it. Why? Clearly because none of
> these things were ever thought through, never had words attached to them.
> If they can't be articulated beyond vague Fukuyama style ramblings, there
> can't be any 'goal'.
>
> Then this vague, smoky, hazy ideology and 'mission' was implemented, and
it
> was done as Lawrence writes, by overestimating themselves and
> underestimating the other side, using ideology and logic instead of facts
> and common sense. The ?end of history? idea lent itself to the logical,
> even if against all common sense, use of last resort first. Result:
> undefined mission is unaccomplished three years later. Added to this was
> their experimental new and improved high tech military, another idea
> bordering on ideology that didn't work out.
>
> I think if you want answers, psychohistory is the place to get them.
> Otherwise, we have to accept Lawrence's explanation that this is simply
the
> way it's always been done, which in fact it has. In other words, that
> enough humans enjoy war, death, misery such that all humans have to
> participate. And indeed, the most advanced civilization the world has
seen
> is presenting us with yet another glorious opportunity to die for
something.
>
> Attributing words like goal to this emotional, hysterical nonsense is
> after-the-fact rationalizing bordering on flattery.
>
>
>
>
> > O.K.
> >
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